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preterism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by reformedfan, Dec 19, 2003.

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  1. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Suede and all,

    Here is thought or two for you all.

    The phrase "the day of the Lord" is referred to many times.
    2 Peter 3:10

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    I don't know of any place that "the day of the Lord" in the new testament isn't talking about the wrath of God or a time of trouble that is coming up.

    "Lord's Day" should mean the same thing as "day of the Lord." I, personnally, talk about the Lord's Day being Sunday, some say Saturday I guess and biblically it is the seventh day or the sabbath or day of rest,etc but nowhere have I ever seen a clear reference where it was called the "Lord's Day" back then.

    If the Lord's day is the same as Day of the Lord, and grammatically it would be in the English language,...WHEN did John SEE the vision? Rev 1:10.

    WHEN John WROTE the Book of Revelation is irrelevent, it is when John SAW the vision. Note John was "in the spirit" that day as well...........

    Remember John was in Heaven being told this story by an angel for most of the time...what makes anybody think mortal man down here on earth would be privy to any of this?

    I'd be interested in verses that anyone has that would confirm or deny this 'lord's day' thing.

    What about the guy who fourteen years ago saw Heaven, whether in the body or out of the body ............................???????????????????

    As far as the biblical timeframe of when the great tribulation was consider this.

    The great tribulation followed an abomination appearing in the Holy place. Hebrews 9 will tell you where the 'holy place' was and it was in the temple. It ceased to exist on earth in 70 AD.
    When the people saw this abomination they were to flee Judea...Judea also ceased to exist as a district in 70 AD. Any time of distress that qualifies for the God given name "great tribulation" has to be followed immediately by a celestial display which includes the parousia, or the coming of the son of man.

    There are countless verses where Jesus said He would return at the time of the destruction of the temple and none that mention the holocaust.....

    The OLivet tells us that ALL these things would happen in THIS generation.....the great tribulation is in there and the Parousia is in there and the 'end' is in there and the destruction of the temple HAS to be in there, that is what this whole thing is about. It is a given that the destruction was back there, and the 'end of the ages', well that is here:

    Hebrews 9\
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

    Jesus did not return as many modern day christian groups say that He would, but that just makes them wrong, not Jesus.
    Justme
     
  2. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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  3. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    Matt 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. “

    +++What we see therefore is to be tested and must agree with what Jesus said. You are trying to tell me that if I place all these horrific events side by side with the destruction of Jerusalam, that none of them compare to the destruction of Jerusalem.+++




    Yes, that is what I’m telling you. You seem to be basing “tribulation” on body count, say the killings of Pol Pot and Hitler. This however is not what the word tribulation means, in fact, killing and dying do not even have to be a part of it.



    Tribulation-



    Noun 1. Great afflicition, trial or distress; suffereing.

    2. An exprience that tests one’s endurance, patience or faith.



    As we can see, the idea of killings with the word tribulation isn’t apt. Remember 70 AD ws the comsumation of the Ages, it was the big switch from one Age to the next. So yes, Pol Pot and Hitler do not in any way match up.



    +++We are just on the first test that Jesus gave, and you are struggling to give me an answer.+++



    Ok, prove that we are on the first test, you claim it, no prove. I don’t struggle to give you an answer either, it’s just not the answer you desire to hear. Too bad, it’s the correct one lest you can disprove it using the Bible instead of Time or Newsweek.



    +++Lets deal with the first signs first as I said before, and we can get to this one, but I need something better than some vague statement.+++



    Sorry, that IS the answer. Prophetic language is poetic, unless of course you really think a giant beast is going to come out of the sea. You don’t do? And if you don’t then you validate my point.



    +++Jesus told us that these are the things that we would see and therefore there must be an historic fulfillment if you claim that it happened already.+++



    Sorry, Jesus did NOT tell us these things. He told them to the 1st Century disciples. It is impertative that we understand that the Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.



    +++ So don’t just tell me that it is symbolic, show me context that allows it to be taken in a non-literal sense and show me literal fulfillment – but first deal with Matt 24:21-22, because if you cannot get past that, then this becomes a moot point.+++



    I already did though. One, Isaiah wrote a similar passage showing the use of poetic symbolism, and two Josephus records a long tailed comet over Jerusalem. Symbolic and literal. Besides, there’s still audience relevance; the audience being the 1st century disciples. It was they that were told that they would see the events Jesus talked about.



    +++SUEDE However Christ did give us a qualifier, that is he is telling the 1st Century dicisple that THEY would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies when the end had come. Them, not us or some other future generation. That’s the difference.

    Tom777 Yes and they did – that does not mean that all prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century. But lets’ concentrate first on Matt 24:21-22.+++




    This does fullfill all things then. If you admit that the Disciples witnessed these things, then that’s it, that’s all folks. Jesus stated that ALL things would be fullfilled, not some, not in part. This fact removes Futurism and Partial Preterism from being apt. Take care,



    SUEDE
     
  4. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    I already told you that was not the sole basis. Indeed I cannot think of any way in which Jerusalem was worse and I am trying to get you to tell me how you justify it. Don't keep just telling me that you don't agree with me, justify your position.



    Sorry, that does not cut it. That is circular reasoning. You assume that 70Ad is the fufillment of prophecy and therefore it must be the event which is spoken of.

    No, we were given a test by which to compare and identify the event. Please show me in qualitative terms that can be measured in what was that 70AD was the most horrific event in history before and after. You gave one item previously, eating of babies, but I showed you that was done in 2 Kings. So you have yet to show any evidence for your position.

    No, you have to show that this is symbolic. We are not discussing the passage in Isaiah. It does nopt work to say that because a verse somehwere in scripture is symbolic that this verse must therefore be symbolic. that is a logical fallacy. You have to show in context that this is symbolic if that is your argument.
     
  5. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    +++I already told you that was not the sole basis. Indeed I cannot think of any way in which Jerusalem was worse and I am trying to get you to tell me how you justify it. Don't keep just telling me that you don't agree with me, justify your position.+++


    Body count IS the only basis you’ve given me, why don’t you attempt to justify your position if it is anything but body count. I’ve justified mine, and mine is the only one that matches up with all the time indicators in the Bible, yours does not.



    +++Sorry, that does not cut it. That is circular reasoning. You assume that 70Ad is the fufillment of prophecy and therefore it must be the event which is spoken of.+++



    And, you assume that it does not. However we know that the people alive in the 1st century were to be witnesses to the end, we know a sign was Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in the 1st century and we know that the Temple being destroyed was a sign of all things being fullfilled. This happened in 70 AD. It is just Edited by moderator to deny that this is the consumation of the Ages.

    +++No, we were given a test by which to compare and identify the event.+++




    Sorry, that doesn’t cut it. I need BIBLICAL proof of this so called “test” we are to go through.



    +++Please show me in qualitative terms that can be measured in what was that 70AD was the most horrific event in history before and after.+++



    Why don’t you show me how Pol Pot and Hitler were worse. remember don't use body counts.



    +++You gave one item previously, eating of babies, but I showed you that was done in 2 Kings. So you have yet to show any evidence for your position.+++



    You’re confusing me with someone else.



    +++No, you have to show that this is symbolic.+++



    I already did and I used the Bible to do so. Sorry if it rains on your futurist parade.



    +++We are not discussing the passage in Isaiah. It does not work to say that because a verse somehwere in scripture is symbolic that this verse must therefore be symbolic. that is a logical fallacy. You have to show in context that this is symbolic if that is your argument+++



    What’s a logical fallacy is the way Futurists refuse to allow the Bible to interpret the Bible. You always have to turn on the world news, or read Newsweek. I bet you think the war with Iraq is some sort of a “sign” don’t you? Is N Korea going to be part of the 2 million man army, or is still just China? Is the Catholic Church still the harlot or have we switched over to the Council of World Churches? Is the UN still the kingdom of the Antichrist or is it the EU now? Until you can get pass these time indicators that directly show 1st century fullfillment, you cannot remain a futurist.



    "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)



    "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)



    "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)



    "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)



    “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)



    “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)



    “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)



    “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)



    “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)



    "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51) I bet you didn't know that the Harlot of Revelation was Jerusalem did you? hmmm, you should allow the Bible to speak for itself for once.



    Take care,

    SUEDE
     
  6. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    Hey JustMe,

    Always a pleasure to run into you, regardless of which forum it is! Take care,

    SUEDE
     
  7. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    No, it is not, but it is you who claim that AD70 was the most horrific event that ever was and ever will be. How do you come to that conclusion? Show me the basis for your comparison with world events and we can go from there.



    Since you are claiming that 70Ad is the event, the onus is on you to establish that rationale for your claim.







    No, I assumed nothing. I just examine your claim. Armies surrounded Jerusalem many times. What make this time different? It must match up to the other tests given by Jesus, one of which we are trying to close on above.



    The destruction of the temple was not a sign of the end. He stated that before the question was asked.



    Now, as I asked previously, let’s continue on the first test rather than turning this into as essay with each message. Please show me the historical fulfillment of Matthew 24:21-22

    Matt 24:21-22

    21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

    NKJV

    I see no indication that Jersusalem 70AD was the worst in history (before or after), nor that all flesh was threatened with destruction. Please show me your basis for comparison and where all flesh was threatened with annihiliation in 70AD.

    If you are not able to do so in the next message, then perhaps we can declare that closed and move on to the next of the signss given by Jesus which indiacte that it is the event spoken of in prophecy. I have not responded to all your commenst because some dealt with other issues and these messages are long enough as is.
     
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I agree with Tom I haven't seen you offer any explanation or support for your assertion that 70 AD fufilled that particular prophecy. Is there anything beside body count? In 70 AD, one country, Israel. The Holocaust, countries across Europe, Germany, Austria, France, Poland, Belgium Holland, Romania, Greece, Italy, Hungary, and others. In 70 AD, one city, Jerusalem. The Holocaust, cities all across Europe. In 70 AD, torture and murder. In the Holocaust, all of the same tortures used throughout history and a new one, medical experimentation, and murder.

    Care to provide us with some information that 70 AD was "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?"
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Tom and Der,

    I'm reading this with great interest. You both have come to the conclusion the great tribulation has to be proved to be the WORST calamity in earthly history and as Suede says you're looking at body count mostly...if you remember, the biblical story of the flood left only 8 standing and body count wise that was up there, at least percentage wise.

    Actually the bible simply says the great tribulation is the time of God's wrath and the likes of that haven't happened before and never will again. God knew about the flood when He said that and apparently knew He would never do this time of wrath thing on earth again.

    Matt 23
    23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ...

    35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

    Jesus was a bit ticked off and here again He tells us which generation will feel God's wrath over this.

    I've seen where people jump on this saying that the generation that Jesus was talking to didn't shed the blood of Abel, well, I didn't either.

    So first God chose to refer to this event as the great tribulation, not Suede. Whether there was less people killed in this event than the holocaust doesn't seem to matter to Him.
    Again I tell you that the great tribulation is proceeded by a flight of the people out of Judea and followed by the parousia. That makes it 100% unique in earthly history, I don't care what horrific events happen ...flood, holocaust or Boxing Day sales at Wal Mart, Jesus called the event in Matthew 24 the great tribulation. As Suede says the time text spell out the rest.

    I see no credibility in your argument that there are other events worse in the future. By the way the entire planet does disappear sometime, but the bible gives no hints as to when. In that one there are no survivors, but then who cares?

    Justme
     
  10. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    Another indication that 70AD was not the tribulation of Matthew 24.

    Read what he says will happen in context:

    Matt 23:33-36
    33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
    NKJV

    It does not say the great tribulation nor does it describe the great tribulation coming upon that generation.
    [/QUOTE]
    Okay, it appears that we are not likely to move forward on this point. The only backup which can be substantiate for believing that 70AD was the great tribulation appears to be personal opinion that this was symbolic and not to be taken literally. Thus we have no evidence of the great tribulation in 70AD.

    If anyone can come forward with something of substance, either from a historical fulfillment or taken from scripture IN CONTEXT, then I remain opne.

    But, I think we are spinning wheels on this verse, so let's move on to what should be a yet easier one.

    The question which began the discussion with Jesus is:

    Matt 24:3
    3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
    NKJV

    Can someone show me historically the evidence that Jesus returned in 70AD?
     
  11. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    +++No, it is not, but it is you who claim that AD70 was the most horrific event that ever was and ever will be. How do you come to that conclusion? Show me the basis for your comparison with world events and we can go from there.+++

    It was so because it was the switching over of Covenants. Also, ALL, I repeat, ALL the sins the Israelites had ever, ever, ever done were going to be charged to the 1st Century generation. Can you even imagine? Every single atrocity Israel had EVER, EVER done was going to be paid for by the 1st Century Generation. History wrote the check, and now the 1st was going to have to cash it. Bear in mind too as we go over these verses that the audience here is the 1st century people, not a future one.

    Matthew 23:29-38 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

    And here’s Luke’s even more glaring take on that,

    Luke 11:48-51 48 "So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, `I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

    Now are you starting to see? When the Covenants were going to be switched over there was still a bit of business to take care of. All pass sins of Israel were being placed upon the 1st Century generation. But one more shall we?

    Matthew 27:24-25When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!"

    That’s from the cruicifixtion of Christ. So, not only was that generation going to have to pay for the sins of their fathers, they were busy creating their own by killing Jesus. So you ask who can this be, I ask, how can this not be?

    +++No, I assumed nothing. I just examine your claim. Armies surrounded Jerusalem many times. What make this time different?+++

    You are not reading my posts very closely which is bothersome to me. However, I will answer this for the third time now. The difference is that the disciples would be seeing this army. That is the difference.

    Luke 21:20 “"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.”

    The “you” in Luke 21:20 is the disciples. There is your difference, there is the proof that this is not speaking of some other time.

    +++The destruction of the temple was not a sign of the end. He stated that before the question was asked.+++

    No, you are misreading that passage. Jesus and his disciples will come out of the temple when he states that it will be destroyed. This is so disturbing to the Jewish disciples they THEN follow up with their questions. But the statement about the temple is what got the ball rolling. Jesus then tells the first century disciples that they will be witnesses to other things as well. Them, not us or a future generation. Note this too,

    "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

    See Jesus didn't say, just a few of these things would happen, he said ALL these things would happen, this means all which includes the Temple.

    You are missing the audience relevance here. Let me restate this, the Bible is written for us not to us.

    +++Now, as I asked previously, let’s continue on the first test rather than turning this into as essay with each message. Please show me the historical fulfillment of Matthew 24:21-22+++


    I have shown, I can’t make you understand though. You must do this. One cannot put the cart before the donkey.

    ++++I see no indication that Jersusalem 70AD was the worst in history (before or after),+++


    Well, we can remove this or future events because as JustMe noted, the Flood was probably the worse event ever in the way that you think the tribulation is supposed to be, body counts. You fail to understand that what made 70 AD so terrible was that all the sins of the past generations were to be paid and accounted for in the 1st Century. You are so obsessed with body counts that you can’t see the blatant evidence knocking down your door. Again because of the trees you don’t see the forest. If you feel that 70 AD is NOT the tribulation, then you must BIBLICALLY prove your case. I and now JustMe have BIBLICALLY laid out the proof, you seem too stuck on Pol Pot and Hitler. Drop assumptions here for a minute. I'll tell you, I was not raised a Preterist, but a futurist like yourself. I understand that this can be difficult, but that doesn't make it less true. We must ask ourselves, what has more weight then the Bible? Nothing! Therefore our mode of thinking in regards to the Bible must be Biblically based. It's not "Can anyone show me that Christ returned in 70 AD", but it's "Can anyone Biblically show me that Christ did NOT return in 70 AD." Take care,

    SUEDE
     
  12. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    Hi Der Alter



    ++++Care to provide us with some information that 70 AD was "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?"+++

    Yes gladly. First things first though. The biggest problem is people get locked into assumptions as to what the Tribulation will be. They assume that it must be one worldwide, and two involve a disturbingly high body count. The problem is the, the Bible states NONE of these things. But, what the Bible does state are events that happened in the 1st century. Instead of putting the cart before the donkey, I would highly recommend the very first thing people do is find out WHEN all these events were to take place. As soon as you know the time, you can then understand the way it was to go down. Here is why the tribulation is what it is and why it was in the 1st century. It was so because it was the switching over of Covenants. The sins the Israelites had ever, ever, ever done were going to be charged to the 1st Century generation. Can you even imagine? Every single atrocity Israel had EVER, EVER done was going to be paid for by the 1st Century Generation. History wrote the check, and now the 1st was going to have to cash it. Bear in mind too as we go over these verses that the audience here is the 1st century people, not a future one.

    Matthew 23:29-38 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

    And here’s Luke’s

    Luke 11:48-51 48 "So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, `I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

    When the Covenants were going to be switched over there was still a bit of business to take care of. All past sins of Israel were being placed upon the 1st Century generation, all the way back to Abel! But one more shall we?

    Matthew 27:24-25When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!"

    That’s from the cruicifixtion of Christ. So, not only was that generation going to have to pay for the sins of their fathers, they were busy creating their own by killing Jesus.


    Now that I have your attention, let’s look at some of those time indicators,

    "You(the 1st century apostles) shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)


    "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

    “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

    “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

    "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

    “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

    “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

    “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

    “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

    “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

    “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

    So Der Alter, the question isn’t “How can this be” the question is “How can this NOT be?” Unless people can make a Biblical claim for Futurism, their point is ultimately moot. Basing things in subjective assumptions can’t supercede objective, Biblical, statements. I hope this helps, please ask myself or JustMe anything else. Take care,

    SUEDE
     
  13. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    You have not addressed the question. You have given an opinion, unsubstantiated by scripture as to WHY you think that the Israelis will see judgement, but nothing whatsoever to show why this classes as a tribulation worse that any before or after, when we have shown you tribulations far worse in any measure.Where is this in scripture?

    What measure do you wish to use to determine how to determine that one tribulation is worse than others? Qualitative? Quantitative? I don’t think that you could find a measure which would work in your favour. The Bible says that if the days were not shortened, that all life would be in danger, yet I see nothing remotely close to that in the history around 70 AD.

    Don’t just give me your opinion - provide historical evidence.

    So? No one argues that there was judgement upon Israel in that timeframe. Judgement has occurred against many nations over time. But you are trying to tell us that this is the ultimate, the worst tribulation ever in history, before or after and I am still waiting to see evidence of that.

    This is your assumption. Why would "you" only apply directly to the people physically standing there? In prophecy, "you" means the witnesses at the time of the event.

    There is nothing to suggest that the destruction of the temple related to the end times and the return of Christ. To prove that, you will need to show me where historically Christ returned in 70AD. Also, one statement was made at the temple and the question was asked some time later at the mount of Olives.

     
  14. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    +++You have not addressed the question. You have given an opinion, unsubstantiated by scripture as to WHY you think that the Israelis will see judgement, but nothing whatsoever to show why this classes as a tribulation worse that any before or after, when we have shown you tribulations far worse in any measure.Where is this in scripture?+++


    Tom, surely you are kidding me. I wonder if you ever read my posts or if you have premade comeback waiting in the wings? ALL your questions have been answered. You also have yet to provide a single shred of evidence to counter me, so why don’t you make your case since mine is obviously falling on deaf ears. I understand your lack of counters as you don’t have any, but I will allow you to prove yourself now.

    +++ The Bible says that if the days were not shortened, that all life would be in danger, yet I see nothing remotely close to that in the history around 70 AD.+++




    This is because you don’t understand the Greek language. You believe the entire world was at threat, are you sure that’s what the Greek is claiming? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not. The Greek states that the only area to be affected would be the Roman Empire.

    +++Don’t just give me your opinion - provide historical evidence+++




    Now hold on Tom, you said you had read Josepheus so I thought it would be pointless to restate him. Well perhaps you just need to brush up on it, go to

    preteristarchive and down at the bottom they have a icon for Josephus.


    +++ So? No one argues that there was judgement upon Israel in that timeframe. Judgement has occurred against many nations over time. But you are trying to tell us that this is the ultimate, the worst tribulation ever in history, before or after and I am still waiting to see evidence of that.+++


    So??? So what do you think the Tribulation was??? It was the Judgement of Israel! If you aren’t arguing that fact then you admit that Preterism is correct! Let me restate Luke, PLEASE read it this time.



    Luke 11:48-51 48 "So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, `I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'



    Please show us BIBLICALLY another group that will be so responsible and will have such a wrath fall on their heads.



    Also note this verse "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)



    Jesus is addressing the 1st century women, which is on par with every single other verse concerning prophecy in the New Testament. They all refer to the 1st Century.



    +++Why would "you" only apply directly to the people physically standing there? In prophecy, "you" means the witnesses at the time of the event.+++



    LOL, why wouldn’t “you” refer to the people standing there? Particularly in the case of the Olivet Discourse which was a private conversation!!



    +++There is nothing to suggest that the destruction of the temple related to the end times and the return of Christ.+++



    Bad misread of the Bible. It is painfully obvious that it is connected. Ask yourself this too, theologically that is. The temple was needed for sacrifice right? Yes. But we don’t need that anymore do we? No. Christ knocking over the temple was a sign that he had come back and was dwelling among men for eternity from then on. It showed that our body was to be his temple.



    +++To prove that, you will need to show me where historically Christ returned in 70AD. Also, one statement was made at the temple and the question was asked some time later at the mount of Olives.+++



    No, Jesus didn’t separate them. Look at verse 34 which ties them together, Jesus says, “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”



    Again, Jesus states in plain black and white that all those things he had talked about, including the destruction of the Temple, were to happen within 40 years. Now that this has been explained to you, for the third time, if you would like to counter it, do so now or accept it as Biblically correct. If you cannot counter it Biblically in your next post, it will be understood as an acceptance of it.



    Now, please state your Biblical case as to why the Tribulation and the Return of Christ did NOT take place in the 1 st Century.

    Take care,

    SUEDE
     
  15. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi guys,

    It seems that Tom etc are asking for physical /historical proof that the parousia occurred.
    There isn't any. As I stated before this takes place in the heavenly spiritual realm, how does any one come back from being dead and report the Heavenly happenings?

    That the Heavenly eternal age/life/inheritance is spiritual and invisible should not surprise anyone.

    2 Cor 4:18

    So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
    That's why if anyone ever tells you "There He is or He is in the wherever" do not believe it.

    No mortal man is going to tell you about the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke 17:20

    So if you're looking for physical evidence of the paraousia you will never find it, you will however know of it on the day you receive your judgment, but you will be dead. Hebrews 9:27.

    There is tons of biblical evidence and that is why they call it faith.

    Justme
     
  16. reformedfan

    reformedfan Senior Veteran

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    what was the worst sin in all history?
    what you think of how horrific AD 70 was is irrelevant, hell is worse than any torturous deaths. Read Psalm 18:37-50. All those who died in the seige are jealous of hitler & pol pot's hell.
    AD 70 was so horrific, NOT because of the actual physical punishments, though they were grotesque & barbaric & Deut. 28:15-68 come to life, but because of the reason for this judgement & suffering.
    It's hard not to weep over pictures of concentration camp victims, people tortured for Christ, etc.
    But the Pharisees & scribes etc. of Christ's generation were so wickedly deserving. People tortured for Christ are only following His example. Christ's suffering didn't consist only in the physical torture of the cross, though it was surprising more people didn't die of shock & I don't know how I'm going to be able to sit through the new Mel Gibson movie on the subject, it was what His death represented- the reason for His suffering.
    It's a shame everyone doesn't see the Bible covenentally. The New Testament isn't detached fromt the Old, the whole thing is God's faithfulness to keep the terms of the covenant for His people He chose from all the families of earth. He promised it in Gen 3:15, he kept His word though everyone sucked & He killed them all in a flood, preserving a teeny remnant, calling Abraham, an old, childless guy w/ a wife well beyond the ability to birth children, made them be able to keep His word & have a baby, etc. The whole Bible, especially the OT, is so important, so linked. All of it pointed to Christ, Who had to leave heaven & the perfect worship of angels, & come to this fallen world. I tell people it'd be like if we could become cockroaches & go live w/ them & die for them.
    But worse for Christ! At least Cockroaches obey perfectly!
    So why was AD 70 so bad?
    Because God's people, His covenental people who He chose out of all the families on earth, killed the vineyard owner's Son in a vain attempt to seize the inheritance.
    It wasn't the carnage, it was the cause behind it, read John 1:5,1:11. Christ comes to His people, and they can't wait to kill Him & get back to their empty animal sacrifice & self righteousness.
    Sorry for the novel.
     
  17. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    You are taking verses out of context.

    Rev 1:7-8
    7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
    NKJV

    Note that every eye will see him. Doesn't sound very invisibile to me.

    Now please show me where every eye saw Jesus Christ return to earth.
     
  18. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    We've been down this path before. That doesn't cut it.

    Matt 24:21-23
    21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
    NKJV

    This is not speaking about the reason (though so far it appears that has been taken out of context also), but it is speaking of tribulation, which is a time of trouble. Indeed we see a description that unless the time was shortened, no flesh should be saved.

    I do not remember anything in 70AD bringing us to the brink of the complete anhilation of all flesh. perhaps you could show me where this was historically fulfilled.

    Please don't tell me that it was invisible or symbolic. Jesus told us this so that we could identify the event when it came.
     
  19. Toms777

    Toms777 Contributor

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    You are making the claim, the onus is on you not me to prove the 70AD claim. I am looking for the historical evidence of:

    1) The greatest tribulation of all time, one that brought us to the brink of the complete anhilation of all mankind

    Matt 24:21-23
    21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
    NKJV

    2) Historical evidence that jesus Christ returned to earth in 70AD.

    Nothing given so far.



    I agree that the world will be affected because the shortening of the days to to prevent the complete anhilation of all flesh, according to the Bible. Show me the historical fulfillment of that.


    Sorry, but read the Bible. The discussion of the temple was prior to the discussion of the endtimes. Jesus said so himself. Before he got into the discussion of the end, he described things to happen and then in verse 6:

    Matt 24:6
    See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    NKJV

    If this was the greatest tribulation of all time, why does he tell them not to be troubled and because it is not the end?

    In Revelation, it says that every eye will see Him when he returns.

    Rev 1:6-8
    7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
    NKJV
     
  20. Suede

    Suede T.W.P

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    +++You are making the claim, the onus is on you not me to prove the 70AD claim. I am looking for the historical evidence of:
    1) The greatest tribulation of all time, one that brought us to the brink of the complete anhilation of all mankind+++



    And you’ve been given it. You are still in the mode of believing a body count is what constitues a Tribulation, it doesn’t. A tribulation is a time of trouble. This definition doesn’t match your or other Futurist’s assumptions. Also, if you are looking for physical evidence of a historical event, good luck!! There’s more in history that we can NOT prove by empircial means.

    ++++Matt 24:21-23 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. +++




    You have also ignored this as well. Note Matthew says that “…will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” JustMe did aptly point out to you the great Flood. BUT, Christ said that even THAT wasn’t going to compare and only 8 people survived!!! Therefore, by your “logic” only 7 people will be able to pass through the Tribulation. Care to respond?

    +++2) Historical evidence that jesus Christ returned to earth in 70AD.
    Nothing given so far.+++




    Hmmm, is the Temple still standing? I didn’t think so. Also, if you wanting historical writings on just how troublesome that time was, go read Jospheus.



    +++I agree that the world will be affected because the shortening of the days to to prevent the complete anhilation of all flesh, according to the Bible. Show me the historical fulfillment of that.+++



    How can I teach you to run when you can’t crawl? The Greek of the NT doesn’t indicate a worldwide tragedy. Again, your assumptions are hinding you from the apparent.



    +++Sorry, but read the Bible. The discussion of the temple was prior to the discussion of the endtimes. Jesus said so himself. Before he got into the discussion of the end, he described things to happen and then in verse 6:
    Matt 24:6
    See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.+++




    Sorry, but quote the entire passage, partial quotes are what athiests and cultists do. Here’s ALL of verse 6



    “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. “



    The ONLY thing verse 6 is qualifying is that the end won’t come when wars and rumors of wars start. There’s still more things that must happen. Besides, verse 34 CLEARLY states that then, after everything has been listed, that ALL those things previously mentioned must happened.

    +++If this was the greatest tribulation of all time, why does he tell them not to be troubled and because it is not the end?+++




    Here’s two apt verses,



    Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    Luke 21:19 “By standing firm you will gain life.”

    +++In Revelation, it says that every eye will see Him when he returns.

    Rev 1:6-8 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."+++




    Oddly enough Jesus said this,



    "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)



    So…how do we remedy these verses? Quite easy actually; it’s a Jewish idiom it isn’t literal. Note too that the verses you gave, Rev 1:7 includes the 1st century Roman soldiers! Aren’t those guys dead though? What an odd thing for John to write! But it isn’t an odd thing to write, as the ones who pierced him would still be around, but only in the first century!



    SUEDE
     
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