Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Gundy22]

I appreciate the list of early date subscribers.

 

[parousia70]

How did you compose this list, is it from some book?

A friend of mine who used to post here years ago complied it.. I’ve been referring to it here for a couple decades now… still have yet to see anyone post a larger list of late date advocates, in spite of their continuous claims that “most scholars prefer the late date”… it’s always crickets when I ask for the evidence.

It seems to be one of those claims that people just blindly accept simply because it fits their bias, in spite of there being no tangible evidence that anyone can point to.

Also, it seems they are all either English or German authors. Is it intentional? Why not more international representation?

well, the list of published Christian scholars from Zimbabwe and Myanmar is a little light…

 

[trophy33]

A friend of mine who used to post here years ago complied it.. I’ve been referring to it here for a couple decades now… still have yet to see anyone post a larger list of late date advocates, in spite of their continuous claims that “most scholars prefer the late date”… it’s always crickets when I ask for the evidence.

it’s seems to be one of those claims that people just blindly accept, in spite of there being no tangible evidence that anyone can point to.



well, the list of published Christian scholars from Zimbabwe and Myanmar is a little light…

I myself think that Revelation was written before 70AD, because it mentions the temple still standing. But the date 90AD is given even in various Bible translations preface. It seems to be the mainstream scholarly datation, now.

 

[trophy33]

well, the list of published Christian scholars from Zimbabwe and Myanmar is a little light…

It does not have to be from Zimbabwe, but just two cultures' theology can be biased.

I am pretty sure that the majority of Spanish theologians are for catholicism, for example. While the majority of Swiss ones will be for protestantism and the majority of Russian ones for eastern orthodoxy.

 

[DavidPT]

I myself think that Revelation was written before 70AD, because it mentions the temple still standing.

Where does it mention the temple still standing? Are you meaning in Revelation 11 perhaps? If so, the 2nd temple couldn't possibly be meant there.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


If the 2nd temple is meant this would mean that the ones worshiping therin would be unbelieving Jews post Christ's death and resurrection. Can't imagine the 2nd temple still being considered the temple of God at that point. Meaning from God's perspective, not from the perspective of unbelieving Jews. Unbelieving Jews wouldn't even be reading this passage to begin with, or if they were, it wouldn't mean anything to them one way or the other since they don't see the NT as holy writ to begin with. What then would be the point in this involving the 2nd temple?


BTW, it doesn't matter if Revelation was perhaps written prior to 70 AD. That proves zero even if it was.

 

[trophy33]

Where does it mention the temple still standing? Are you meaning in Revelation 11 perhaps?

Yes.

Can't imagine the 2nd temple still being considered the temple of God at that point.

Its just how it was commonly called. If the author called it differently, nobody would understand what is meant.
In the same way Jerusalem was called "the holy city", there. Even though it was full of unbelievers and set to be destroyed.

 

[claninja]

I find it fascinating how much futurism relies so heavily on the notion that the apostles were in such blatant error on the timing.

absolutely agreed. It’s quite strange that The view of the Millennium, a symbolic vision with no interpretation given by the angel, has so much influence for how futurists interpret the clear teachings in the gospels/epistles, instead of the other way around.

 

[Gundy22]

Probably the majority of scholars think Revelation was written about 95 AD, and do not think the thousand years are literal

 

[Gundy22]

But if the 1000 years are literal, and Revelation was proved to be late date - I would stii hold a form of partial preterism.

 

[keras]

But if the 1000 years are literal, and Revelation was proved to be late date

Just as the Bible Prophets do say.

I would stii hold a form of partial preterism.

Until events prove you wrong.
Preterism is a form of denial, a way to avoid the thought of impending dramatic changes. Not sensible or how we should be at this crucial time of human history.

 

[Gundy22]

Did people "avoid the thought of impending dramatic changes" in the days of Noah?
Marrying - giving in marriage - til the flood came.

 

[Gundy22]

Do you say, Keras, that a 3 and 1/2 year period - or 7 year period - must take place before Jesus returns? If you do - you are just "reverse-date-setting". Me - I say that "impending dramatic changes are IMMINENT - and waiting on nothing - no peace treaty, no 7 year "trib" - no 3 1/2 year Great Trib -- just WHAMM -- one day Jesus is suddenly back. What am I denying?

 

[Gundy22]

There is nothing that HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST before the second coming. It is imminent.

 

[keras]

Did people "avoid the thought of impending dramatic changes" in the days of Noah?
Marrying - giving in marriage - til the flood came.

Quite right, the antediluvian peoples had no idea they were about to be inundated. Just like it is today.
Only this time, instead of water it will be by fire. 2 Peter 3:7

What am I denying?

The entire range of unfulfilled Bible prophecy.

There is nothing that HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST before the second coming. It is imminent.

In no way is Jesus going to Return into the world as it is today.
Proved by how His enemies must be made His footstool BEFORE that glorious Day. Hebrews 10:13

 

[Gundy22]

Heb 1:13

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 

[keras]

Heb 1:13

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

I can only suggest to you that you read the sequence of events as prophesied in Revelation, from the next one; the Sixth Seal to the end.
They are plainly stated event, with some easily understood allegories. Believe them or remain in the dark. 1 Thess 5:1-11

 

[trophy33]

Probably the majority of scholars think Revelation was written about 95 AD

But its only based on reasoning that the writers could not be the apostles. Therefore they push the date later than they lived. Its not based on something in the text.

They pushed many NT books even into the 2nd century and had to return it back to the 1st when many old manuscripts were discovered. Classical liberal theology projected to textual criticism.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Preterism is a form of denial, a way to avoid the thought of impending dramatic changes. Not sensible or how we should be at this crucial time of human history.

Well, I am a preterist of sorts, and I do not deny the reality of "impending dramatic changes" in our near future. It's just that the type of imminent events in OUR immediate future are NOT the same as the imminent events that were present back in Peter's days, when he warned the believers in 1 Peter 4:7 that "The end of all things is at hand. Be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." That was the end of a different set of ages back in Peter's days. Another set of ages will conclude down the road in our distant future.

As for the present, the transition from the end of the 6th millennium over to the 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet will arrive in the year 2033 (which is 2000 years after Christ's crucifixion and the end of that 4th millennium). I believe scripture patterns indicate that this year of 2033 is when the world will go fallow in a type of imposed "Sabbath" rest for the next, 7th millennium. Leading up until that year 2033, the world is currently experiencing wildly-fluctuating conditions that will precede that fallow existence for the entire planet. For one thing, we are due for a mini ice age, which those who observe patterns of sunspot activity are telling us is on the way in the near future. This, combined with the precarious financial settings in every nation, are part of the same events preceding the 7th, fallow millennium. Consider simplified, sustainable living, people, with preparedness for perhaps "sheltering in place" for the long run. Get to know your neighbors much better, if possible. You will probably need each other much more than you think.

 

[Gundy22]

I agree myst33, I don't think the majority of scholars are correct about the late-dating of many books. Of Revelation itself, they harp on something written by Irenaeus that really is a dubious reference.

Does it make sense that ANY New Testament book would not mention the 70 AD destruction of the Temple if it had happenned already? I think all the NT books were written pre-destruction of the Temple; the only scholar who pushes that is Theide.

 

[trophy33]

Does it make sense that ANY New Testament book would not mention the 70 AD destruction of the Temple if it had happenned already? I think all the NT books were written pre-destruction of the Temple

I think so too, such an even would be mentioned.