Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[keras]

Since Jesus is coming as a thief in the night, and thieves in the night are never seen coming, it cannot literally mean every eye in the world will visibly see Him.

This is error. Jesus does not Return 'as a thief', secretly or unexpectedly.
None of the Prophesies about the Return say that. Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

The sudden, shocking and unexpected event will be the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 48:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, +
The Sixth Seal world changer, which commences all the prophesied end times events.

 

[robycop3]

Since Jesus is coming as a thief in the night, and thieves in the night are never seen coming,

A thief in the night isn't invisible. He/she comes SUDDENLY. Remember, if the occupant is watching for the thief, he will see him, coming suddenly or not. And I believe Jesus will come SUDDENLY.

it cannot literally mean every eye in the world will visibly see Him.

Why not? Jesus Himself said every eye would see His return, & I believe Him.

Secondly, Jesus prays to the Father to give Him the glory He had before the foundation of the world then tells us He is coming in His glory and the glory of the Father. What does that look like?

I don't know, except it'll be the greatest glory ever seen on this world.

The Sanhedrin is told that "from now on they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven." Explain how they saw Him sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.

They didn't see Him then. But maybe that's how He first appears to them at His return. Remember, He said the SIGN of the Son of man would be seen immsdiately before His coming, and maybe that's the sign.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

This is error. Jesus does not Return 'as a thief', secretly or unexpectedly.
None of the Prophesies about the Return say that. Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

The sudden, shocking and unexpected event will be the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 48:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, +
The Sixth Seal world changer, which commences all the prophesied end times events.

Your argument is with scripture and not with me:
Revelation 16:
…14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.” 16And they assembled the kings in the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.…

Luke 12:37
Blessed are those servants whom the master finds on watch when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve and will have them recline at the table, and he himself will come and wait on them.....
39But understand this: If the homeowner had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.
2 Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.
Revelation 3:3
Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.Matthew 24:43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
1 Thessalonians 5:2,3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night…

 

[keras]

Your argument is with scripture and not with me:

The glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, is not 'as a thief'.
Such a belief is contrary to all the actual prophesies about His Return, seen as it happens by everyone alive then. Revelation 1:7
1 Thessalonians 4:16 When the Command is given, when the archangel's voice is heard, when God's trumpet sounds, THEN the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....

ALL the references to an unexpected 'coming', refer to the soon to happen; terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. The Sixth Seal event.
Look at prophesies like Amos 5:18-20. Is that how the Return will be?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, is not 'as a thief'.
Such a belief is contrary to all the actual prophesies about His Return, seen as it happens by everyone alive then. Revelation 1:7
1 Thessalonians 4:16 When the Command is given, when the archangel's voice is heard, when God's trumpet sounds, THEN the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....

ALL the references to an unexpected 'coming', refer to the soon to happen; terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. The Sixth Seal event.
Look at prophesies like Amos 5:18-20. Is that how the Return will be?

Do you agree this also describes the Lord's final return? Since the church is taken out prior to tribulation or at least by middle of tribulation (which I'm not sure of yet), does this group of the elect refer to Christians from Heaven to return to earth with Him?

Matthew 30:

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The last couple minutes of this movie that Hal Lindsey endorsed shows how I think the Lord could be visible worldwide (skip to 4:30), though it doesn't show the Lord specifically, it does show how the sign can be simulatenously global:

I cannot understand how Preterism can think this has already been fulfilled in AD70.

 

[keras]

Do you agree this also describes the Lord's final return?

Yes.
Isn't it obvious that Revelation 1:7 and 1 Thess 4:16 are describing the Return in power and glory.

Since the church is taken out prior to tribulation or at least by middle of tribulation (which I'm not sure of yet), does this group of the elect refer to Christians from Heaven to return to earth with Him?

At the mid point of the final 7 years of this age, the Christians who kept the Covenant and remained faithful until that time, will be taken to a place of safety. Revelation 12:14
They do not go to heaven and no human Returns with Jesus. He gathers them to Him then, thru the clouds to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

Movies like the Omega Code, are fanciful rubbish.
Our world will be a very different place after the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal. We will have no modern technology, weapons or electric power supply.

I cannot understand preterism; full stop.
That belief looks very much like a cop out, a way to avoid the forthcoming, very scary; graphically prophesied end time events.

 

[robycop3]

Do you agree this also describes the Lord's final return? Since the church is taken out prior to tribulation or at least by middle of tribulation (which I'm not sure of yet), does this group of the elect refer to Christians from Heaven to return to earth with Him?

Matthew 30:

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The last couple minutes of this movie that Hal Lindsey endorsed shows how I think the Lord could be visible worldwide (skip to 4:30), though it doesn't show the Lord specifically, it does show how the sign can be simulatenously global:

I cannot understand how Preterism can think this has already been fulfilled in AD70.

The saints gathered at Jesus' return are the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture. All the already-saved saints, dead & living, will be called to Jesus at the rapture. The first trib saints will be people who realize the rapture has occurred, & will come to Jesus, same as the departed saints did. There will be those who hear & heed the preaching of the 2 special witnesses, as well as that of the the 144K Israelis. Many of the trib saints won't survive the trib, being killed by the natural disasters of it, as well as by the beast's security forces. But at Jesus' return, these saints, living and dead, will be called to Jesus to join their fellow saints who were "raptured".

 

[Ed Parenteau]

A thief in the night isn't invisible. He/she comes SUDDENLY. Remember, if the occupant is watching for the thief, he will see him, coming suddenly or not. And I believe Jesus will come SUDDENLY.

But of course, I'm not talking about the one who is watching.

Why not? Jesus Himself said every eye would see His return, & I believe Him.

In Acts 1: 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. So, if they saw Him leave in the clouds of heaven "out of their sight", will He come back in the same manner as they saw Him leave?

I don't know, except it'll be the greatest glory ever seen on this world.

How would you see a physical man who is hidden in the clouds with that kind of glory?

They didn't see Him then. But maybe that's how He first appears to them at His return. Remember, He said the SIGN of the Son of man would be seen immsdiately before His coming, and maybe that's the sign.

And immediately after the tribulation. So, which "the tribulation was John a fellow partaker of? Rev 1:9

 

[robycop3]

But of course, I'm not talking about the one who is watching.

In Acts 1: 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. So, if they saw Him leave in the clouds of heaven "out of their sight", will He come back in the same manner as they saw Him leave?

They saw Him rise til He entered the cloud.

How would you see a physical man who is hidden in the clouds with that kind of glory?

When He comes outta the cloud.

And immediately after the tribulation. So, which "the tribulation was John a fellow partaker of? Rev 1:9

Jesus said He'd return immediately after the great trib.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

QUOTE="robycop3, post: 76687036, member: 358424"]When He comes outta the cloud.[/QUOTE]Where does it say He comes out of the clouds of heaven and again walks upon the earth?
"my kingdom is not of this world", "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God",
"My kingdom does not come by observation", "yet a little while and the world will see me no more,"

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But of course, I'm not talking about the one who is watching.

In Acts 1: 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. So, if they saw Him leave in the clouds of heaven "out of their sight", will He come back in the same manner as they saw Him leave?

How would you see a physical man who is hidden in the clouds with that kind of glory?

You are missing the context of that verse. You need to read the next 2 verses to understand the context.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Your view that He was hidden when He went into heaven and being hidden is the same manner that He will descend from heaven is not what this passage says at all. This passage indicates that He will come back in the same way that He was SEEN going up to heaven "before their very eyes". So, it's clearly saying He will be SEEN after He descends from heaven just like He was SEEN while He was ascending to heaven. And the way that He was SEEN ascending to heaven was bodily. He will also be SEEN bodily when He descends from heaven.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is error. Jesus does not Return 'as a thief', secretly or unexpectedly.

Why do you state things that blatantly contradict scripture?

These passages are all clearly about His return and they clearly indicate that He will return as a thief.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The saints gathered at Jesus' return are the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture. All the already-saved saints, dead & living, will be called to Jesus at the rapture. The first trib saints will be people who realize the rapture has occurred, & will come to Jesus, same as the departed saints did. There will be those who hear & heed the preaching of the 2 special witnesses, as well as that of the the 144K Israelis. Many of the trib saints won't survive the trib, being killed by the natural disasters of it, as well as by the beast's security forces. But at Jesus' return, these saints, living and dead, will be called to Jesus to join their fellow saints who were "raptured".

I agree with most of that in principal, but this Scripture says the Elect from Heaven, as if they are already in Heaven, not being collected from the earth. But its a minor point of distinction because either way the end result is the same. I just think Scripture is talking about all of us in Christ "they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.". Heavens sounds like literal Heaven - we are all there already with the Lord by the point of this Scripture, and now we return with the Lord, having been gathered from Heaven. But I agree about all the rest you wrote. I think the 144,000 are Israelis marked or protected from the 12 tribes, as the Scripture literally states. Its also a strange coincidence that its about the same number of Christians who are now living in Israel - very close to 144,000, but they will have to be different I think than this 144,000 because all believers will be caught up in the Rapture, whether in Israel or not. I just find it fascinating that it is also about the same number of Christians that currently live in Israel.

I also think time is very close and those of us who are saved need to heed this final warning that the day is coming soon when we won't be able to witness to anyone. Putin is insane and is about to pull the nuclear trigger and end the world, so we may not have a lot of time to reach the lost with the Gospel, but we also know God has the names of those saved written before the foundation of the world, but that doesn't mean we aren't to fulfill the Great Commission and spread the Gospel to all nations while we still are alive on Earth. I'm going to focus a bit more on the Outreach forum before time runs out and we are all taken out of here.

 

[keras]

Why do you state things that blatantly contradict scripture?

These passages are all clearly about His return and they clearly indicate that He will return as a thief.

Jesus does not come to destroy the world that He Returns to rule over.

ALL the references saying He 'comes' unexpectedly and causes mass destruction, refer to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The punishment upon the ungodly peoples by fire, the event Jesus compared to what happened in the days of Noah.
Proved by Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4

To conflate the two Days of the Lord to come, is error and confusion.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You are missing the context of that verse. You need to read the next 2 verses to understand the context.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Your view that He was hidden when He went into heaven and being hidden is the same manner that He will descend from heaven is not what this passage says at all. This passage indicates that He will come back in the same way that He was SEEN going up to heaven "before their very eyes". So, it's clearly saying He will be SEEN after He descends from heaven just like He was SEEN while He was ascending to heaven. And the way that He was SEEN ascending to heaven was bodily. He will also be SEEN bodily when He descends from heaven.

I believe that Daniel's vision of the ascension gives us insight as seen from heaven's perspective.
Daniel 7:
13In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.
14And He was given dominion, ( Matthew 28:18 )
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language ( Matthew 28:19 )
should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion( Ephesian's 1:20-22 )
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed.

John 14:18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live.
Acts 10:39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.

 

[robycop3]

QUOTE="robycop3, post: 76687036, member: 358424"]When He comes outta the cloud.

Where does it say He comes out of the clouds of heaven and again walks upon the earth?
"my kingdom is not of this world", "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God",
"My kingdom does not come by observation", "yet a little while and the world will see me no more,"[/QUOTE]
He MUST come outta the clouds to be seen. He said the world will see HIM, not simply clouds, which we see almost every day.
And no, He won't be seen by the world any more-UNTIL HE RETURNS.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Revelation 20:1-4

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Granted its not crystal clear where this happens, but the context suggests this is on the Earth, not in Heaven.

This is where I don't get any position other than Futurism. Satan sure seems to be deceiving the nations to this day. He lost a lot of power at the cross and after Pentecost, but we still have casinos, strip joints, pornography, and rampant drug use along with many other evils. I even know people in my family who have encountered demons and my father in law was a witness to a true exorcism. There was even a huge Satan event this year, though I hear it was more a protest against religion than true Satanic worship, but still they used the name Satan in this large gathering in Arizona I think.

But let's face it. If Eschatology were clear cut, we wouldn't still be debating it, and really smart Christians endorse other views than Futurism, such as RS Sproul and Dr Ken Gentry who are Preterists. However, I still find Futurism as the best fit to both Scripture and to what is happening in the world. Things are not getting better and Christianity is not taking over the world, but again its man's evil nature and not failure of the Gospel.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Where does it say He comes out of the clouds of heaven and again walks upon the earth?
"my kingdom is not of this world", "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God",
"My kingdom does not come by observation", "yet a little while and the world will see me no more,"

He MUST come outta the clouds to be seen. He said the world will see HIM, not simply clouds, which we see almost every day.
And no, He won't be seen by the world any more-UNTIL HE RETURNS.[/QUOTE]Since we agree that the clouds took Him out of sight in verse 9, then looking at verses 10 and 11 In verse 10 while hidden in the clouds, they continued to watch Him go when the 2 angels appeared.
Acts1:10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Then at some point, Jesus entered into heaven after He was hidden in the cloud.
11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
If the angels intended to mean the whole scene, they could have just said "the same way you saw Him taken." But instead they became specific and said: "as you saw him go into heaven". And the proof that's what they meant are all the verses that say He's "coming in the clouds", not one says "coming in the clouds as He descends to the earth."

 

[robycop3]

He MUST come outta the clouds to be seen. He said the world will see HIM, not simply clouds, which we see almost every day.
And no, He won't be seen by the world any more-UNTIL HE RETURNS.

Since we agree that the clouds took Him out of sight in verse 9, then looking at verses 10 and 11 In verse 10 while hidden in the clouds, they continued to watch Him go when the 2 angels appeared.
Acts1:10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Then at some point, Jesus entered into heaven after He was hidden in the cloud.
11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
If the angels intended to mean the whole scene, they could have just said "the same way you saw Him taken." But instead they became specific and said: "as you saw him go into heaven". And the proof that's what they meant are all the verses that say He's "coming in the clouds", not one says "coming in the clouds as He descends to the earth."[/QUOTE]
He will come in the same manner-descending to earth, just as He was taken from the earth.. He will be seen, of course, with the clouds behind Him, just as they were in fronta Him when He left.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Revelation 20:1-4

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Granted its not crystal clear where this happens, but the context suggests this is on the Earth, not in Heaven.

This is where I don't get any position other than Futurism. Satan sure seems to be deceiving the nations to this day. He lost a lot of power at the cross and after Pentecost, but we still have casinos, strip joints, pornography, and rampant drug use along with many other evils. I even know people in my family who have encountered demons and my father in law was a witness to a true exorcism. There was even a huge Satan event this year, though I hear it was more a protest against religion than true Satanic worship, but still they used the name Satan in this large gathering in Arizona I think.

But let's face it. If Eschatology were clear cut, we wouldn't still be debating it, and really smart Christians endorse other views than Futurism, such as RS Sproul and Dr Ken Gentry who are Preterists. However, I still find Futurism as the best fit to both Scripture and to what is happening in the world. Things are not getting better and Christianity is not taking over the world, but again its man's evil nature and not failure of the Gospel.

Just do a search of Christian growth in the world. Then consider the following parable of when it started and where it's at now.
Matthew 13:31He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man planted in his field. 32Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

The church of Jesus Christ is not a weak and dying church that Satan is just to strong for and needs to be rescued, but it is this church of the king of kings and lord of lords:

Ephesians 3:20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Wherever there are generations, there is life and death in the flesh.