Preterism and Christ's Return

[Hitch]

You won't get any argument from me on that one. I get to preach Mark 13 next Sunday. Maybe I should post a transcript of the sermon here and see how the dispy's react.

The Attack of the Evil Monster Leaven Trees

 

[FreeinChrist]

LOL

Well sad one find me one preterist who says satan has
no influence in the world.

Easy - go to Preterist archives and other such sites.

BTW Scofield gives the renewed sacrfices the same power and status they had before the cross. Look it up page 890.

You mean where he writes:
"Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back at the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross. In neither case have animal sacrifices power to put away sin (Hebrews10:4; Roman. 3:25).

So any sacrifices they may do will not be able to cause remission of sin. And you fail in your post to point out that he is commentaing on the temple described in Ezekiel - which, given the dimensions of it, has never been built.

As far as your commentary of what Scofield believes, I prefer to read Scofield for myself. Comes off diffenetly in his words verses others opinions of his words.

One more jewel:

and that Israel will come to Christ during the tribulation period

I dont think this heresy should be allowed on achristina forum.

Heresy? And farthur down you accuse me of antisemitism. Yes hitch, I am complaining. Your comments and false accusations are pathetic and ugly.
Zec 13:1 "In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.
Zec 13:2 "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.
Zec 13:8 "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off {and} perish; But the third will be left in it.
Zec 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "

Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zec 14:5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, {and} all the holy ones with Him!
Zec 14:6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
Zec 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
Zec 14:8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one.
Zec 14:10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.Zec 14:11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
Zec 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You should keep your antisemitic 'salvation for jews is to comel ater' drivel out of public view. It is contrary to apostolic revelation.

False Accusations of antisemitism.... the frequent ugly comments about DF - you are rude and unChristlike, IMHO.
And yes, I will be complaining.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Both preterism and dispensationalism are one-dimensional eschatologies which focus almost entirely on the question of prophecy fulfillment or non-fulfillment. Eschatology is more than this, however. It is concerned with the completion of all things: how God has perfected, is perfecting, and will perfect salvation and redemption on the personal, corporate, and cosmic levels.

Dispensationalism is inadequate in addressing the question because it fails to take into consideration the absolute decisiveness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on all of history and all of creation. To the dispensationalist, history is moving toward a violent, tragic end and creation is on a collision course with total destruction. Jesus' death and resurrection serves only, at best, to rescue believers from the inevitable catastrophe that history and creation are heading toward.

Not exactly....dispensationalism believes that it is the blood of Jesus Christ takes removes sin - from the past, before the cross, and for all believers after the cross. We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.

 

[Pericles]

We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.

How in the world can you believe the Law has been fulfilled????? I already pointed out that if the heavens and earth are still standing, you cannot say that the Law has been fulfilled! You are contradicting yourself per Christ's words:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." - Matthew 5:18

HAS THE HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY???

 

[Hitch]

False Accusations of antisemitism.... the frequent ugly comments about DF - you are rude and unChristlike, IMHO.
And yes, I will be complaining.

Saying that jews must wait for salvation is antisemietic and very dispensational. 'Now is the time' and I will rest on apostolic revelation

Go ahead and complain if the truth is not a valid defense I dont care to remain.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord

Correct. He was righteous in his generations, too. But he wasn't under the Law, was he?

Are you saying these are all different dispensations? Goodness Scofield only has seven despensations

Did I write that they were different dispensations? I don't believe I specifically said that they were. Did you get the point of what I wrote though? Did Noah have to get circumcized? Was Abraham under the Law?
Didn't those in the Old Covenant mediated by Moses have to be circumcized (males anyway) and follow the Law in regards to sacrifices, washings, food, and much more?
Now do we, in the New Covenant, have to sacrifice animals? Are we forbidden to wear cloth made of two different fibers? Do we have to be physically circumcized? NO.

Charles Ryrie, a dispensationist of some note, wrote:
"The basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ; the requirement of salvation in every age is faith; the object of faith in every age is God; the content of faith changes in the various dispensations."

As I wrote above, God requirements of man changed over the millenia.

Dispensationalist believe this to be scrptural prophecy if not required of GOD

We believe it is "scriptural" in that we see a future fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .

why would ya think it is scriptural Is this the salvation of the Blood of Jesus the Cross of Thee Lamb of God? Sounds to me to be a salvation of works.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The colosseum is full of their blood

Not a single preterist was there. Preterism came around far later.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Not exactly....dispensationalism believes that it is the blood of Jesus Christ takes removes sin - from the past, before the cross, and for all believers after the cross. We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.

You are apparently not a dispensationalist of the Darby/Scofield variety. You sound more like a Calvinist who leans toward pre-millennialism.

 

[FreeinChrist]

False Accusations of antisemitism.... the frequent ugly comments about DF - you are rude and unChristlike, IMHO.
And yes, I will be complaining.

Saying that jews must wait for salvation is antisemietic and very dispensational. 'Now is the time' and I will rest on apostolic revelation

Go ahead and complain if the truth is not a valid defense I dont care to remain.

I have. And now you are misrepresenting what I wrote. BADLY!

One, if a Jew accepts Christ right now, they are saved. No waiting. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. My Sunday morning adult community teacher (or Sunday School) is a converted Jew. And he id's himself as a Christian. (and does he wver know the Law, and how Christ fulfilled it ! )

Two, the future redemption of Israel is a national redemption. but only those who turn to Christ are saved. It is described in Zechariah 12-14.

so yes, I am complaining again.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back at the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross.

I suppose it goes without saying that Scofield did not understand the true meaning of the Eucharist as both a memorial of Christ's passion and the Church's offering of itself as a living sacrifice in union with Christ's offering on its behalf.

As our communion liturgy reads:

And so, in remembrance of these, your might acts in Jesus Christ, we offer ourselves in praise and thanksgiving as a holy and living sacrifice, in union with Christ's offering for us, as we proclaim the mystery of faith.

Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.

 

[FreeinChrist]

You are apparently not a dispensationalist of the Darby/Scofield variety. You sound more like a Calvinist who leans toward pre-millennialism.

hmmm - a few posts and you call me a Calvinist? Shouldn't assume.
I am a Classic Dispensationist. I am neither Calvinist or arminian (sp?). I believe we have free will to accept Christ, but that God knew from the beginning how it all would work out, and who will accept. I am definitely premillennial and I am also pretrib. So yes, I am a dispie of the Darby/Scofield type - but no. 1 thing is, I am a believer and follower of Jesus christ, my risen Saviour.
My comment above about the dispenssations - I hadn't specified exactly what dispensations I believe there were in my earlier post, was just making a point.

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Two, the future redemption of Israel is a national redemption. but only those who turn to Christ are saved. It is described in Zechariah 12-14.

Now, you're sounding like a dispensationalist!

 

[rebaa]

...I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .

So then you believe they will recognize who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) and then the blood of bulls and goats will be ordained by God?

 

[FreeinChrist]

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I suppose it goes without saying that Scofield did not understand the true meaning of the Eucharist as both a memorial of Christ's passion and the Church's offering of itself as a living sacrifice in union with Christ's offering on its behalf.

As our communion liturgy reads:

And so, in remembrance of these, your might acts in Jesus Christ, we offer ourselves in praise and thanksgiving as a holy and living sacrifice, in union with Christ's offering for us, as we proclaim the mystery of faith.

Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.

The quote of Scofield, which the above comment is a response to, is from the Scofield Bible and needs to be understood in regards to what it was referencing. His other comments in other parts do show the knowledge that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and that it is the blood of Christ that took away the sin of the OT saints, and is the only way sin is removed since his ressurection.

 

[FreeinChrist]

So then you believe they will recognize who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) and then the blood of bulls and goats will be ordained by God?

no. They will turn to Christ, and receive salvation.

Perhaps this site will help you understand:
http://www.dispensationalism.com/

 

[Hitch]

.

You mean where he writes:
"Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back at the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross. In neither case have animal sacrifices power to put away sin (Hebrews10:4; Roman. 3:25).

OK Sad one explain how this differs from my comment

So any sacrifices they may do will not be able to cause remission of sin. And you fail in your post to point out that he is commentaing on the temple described in Ezekiel - which, given the dimensions of it, has never been built.

I dont care for yopur os so typical DF style innuendo . Are you too dim to remember that the sacrfices were the subject? I reckon not ,,you're just trying to find something to whine about. Well you came to the right place. So tell me since you have insisted ona literalizinf Ezzy temple why dont you literalize the sacrfices there as well
Ezek 43:22
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
(KJV)

Ezek 44:27
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Sin offerings huh? Memorial sin offerings? LOL

As far as your commentary of what Scofield believes, I prefer to read Scofield for myself. Comes off diffenetly in his words verses others opinions of his words. Does Scofield give the same wieght to the sacrfices or not?

Two, the future redemption of Israel is a national redemption. but only those who turn to Christ are saved. It is described in Zechariah 12-14.

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
(KJV)

Yawn,, gee you boldly claim this is future,,despint the apostoloc revelation of fuilfillment. Hmmm who should I believe...


Make up your mind you are too easily turned about. But while you're a trying to descide what you think please show me a promise to returm made after the Babylonian exiles came back

H

 

[rebaa]

...

I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .

Free what about this quote of yours just written in a hurry?

 

[Patmosman_sga]

The quote of Scofield, which the above comment is a response to, is from the Scofield Bible and needs to be understood in regards to what it was referencing. His other comments in other parts do show the knowledge that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and that it is the blood of Christ that took away the sin of the OT saints, and is the only way sin is removed since his ressurection.

But that does not explain what his understanding of the Eucharist was. Those (such as myself) who believe the Eucharist is an escahtological event are less likely to be dispensationalists because we see in the celebration of the sacrament both a participation in the past and present work of God in Christ and an anticipation of the final, consummatory act of God in Christ to bring about the redemption of the world. The Eucharist connects us with the past, encourages us in the present, and prepares us for the future. But, at the Lord's Table, all of time is wrapped up in eternity. Hence, the elaborate "end times" scenarios developed by Scofield, et al. are not only unnecessary and irrelevant (even if they were accurate, which they are not), but more than a little odd. Who needs charts, maps, timelines, and "rapture indexes" when you can experience a foretaste of the ultimate reality of the kingdom of God right now?

When will the Lord return? Next Sunday! The "end" is as near as your local church, and it's something you should be running to, not from.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Free what about this quote of yours just written in a hurry?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. While dispies believe that Israel will build a temple and restart sacrifices, which will be interupted in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, they are not sacrifices that are ordained by God. Those sacrifices will do nothing at all for them. their only salvation is recognizing WHO Jesus is - the Son of God who died for our sins. When they turn to Christ, then the Second Coming occurs. According to Zechariah 13, 1/3 come "through the fire".

 

[FreeinChrist]

But that does not explain what his understanding of the Eucharist was. Those (such as myself) who believe the Eucharist is an escahtological event are less likely to be dispensationalists because we see in the celebration of the sacrament both a participation in the past and present work of God in Christ and an anticipation of the final, consummatory act of God in Christ to bring about the redemption of the world. The Eucharist connects us with the past, encourages us in the present, and prepares us for the future. But, at the Lord's Table, all of time is wrapped up in eternity. Hence, the elaborate "end times" scenarios developed by Scofield, et al. are not only unnecessary and irrelevant (even if they were accurate, which they are not), but more than a little odd. Who needs charts, maps, timelines, and "rapture indexes" when you can experience a foretaste of the ultimate reality of the kingdom of God right now?

When will the Lord return? Next Sunday! The "end" is as near as your local church, and it's something you should be running to, not from.

Who is running from what? I am looking forward to what Christ does today, and will do tomorrow - and to a future physical return of Jesus. I am not Catholic, but I take that you are? Don't they believe in a future physical return of Christ?

 

[rebaa]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. While dispies believe that Israel will build a temple and restart sacrifices, which will be interupted in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, they are not sacrifices that are ordained by God. Those sacrifices will do nothing at all for them. their only salvation is recognizing WHO Jesus is - the Son of God who died for our sins. When they turn to Christ, then the Second Coming occurs. According to Zechariah 13, 1/3 come "through the fire".

Is this salvation "through the fire" avaible only for the Jew?