The Attack of the Evil Monster Leaven TreesPatmosman_sga said:You won't get any argument from me on that one. I get to preach Mark 13 next Sunday. Maybe I should post a transcript of the sermon here and see how the dispy's react.
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The Attack of the Evil Monster Leaven TreesPatmosman_sga said:You won't get any argument from me on that one. I get to preach Mark 13 next Sunday. Maybe I should post a transcript of the sermon here and see how the dispy's react.
Easy - go to Preterist archives and other such sites.Hitch said:LOL
Well sad one find me one preterist who says satan has
no influence in the world.
BTW Scofield gives the renewed sacrfices the same power and status they had before the cross. Look it up page 890.
One more jewel:
and that Israel will come to Christ during the tribulation period
I dont think this heresy should be allowed on achristina forum.
False Accusations of antisemitism.... the frequent ugly comments about DF - you are rude and unChristlike, IMHO.
You should keep your antisemitic 'salvation for jews is to comel ater' drivel out of public view. It is contrary to apostolic revelation.
Not exactly....dispensationalism believes that it is the blood of Jesus Christ takes removes sin - from the past, before the cross, and for all believers after the cross. We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.Patmosman_sga said:Both preterism and dispensationalism are one-dimensional eschatologies which focus almost entirely on the question of prophecy fulfillment or non-fulfillment. Eschatology is more than this, however. It is concerned with the completion of all things: how God has perfected, is perfecting, and will perfect salvation and redemption on the personal, corporate, and cosmic levels.
Dispensationalism is inadequate in addressing the question because it fails to take into consideration the absolute decisiveness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ on all of history and all of creation. To the dispensationalist, history is moving toward a violent, tragic end and creation is on a collision course with total destruction. Jesus' death and resurrection serves only, at best, to rescue believers from the inevitable catastrophe that history and creation are heading toward.
How in the world can you believe the Law has been fulfilled????? I already pointed out that if the heavens and earth are still standing, you cannot say that the Law has been fulfilled! You are contradicting yourself per Christ's words:FreeinChrist said:We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.
Correct. He was righteous in his generations, too. But he wasn't under the Law, was he?rebaa said:Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord
Did I write that they were different dispensations? I don't believe I specifically said that they were. Did you get the point of what I wrote though? Did Noah have to get circumcized? Was Abraham under the Law?Are you saying these are all different dispensations? Goodness Scofield only has seven despensations
Dispensationalist believe this to be scrptural prophecy if not required of GOD
We believe it is "scriptural" in that we see a future fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week. I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;why would ya think it is scriptural Is this the salvation of the Blood of Jesus the Cross of Thee Lamb of God? Sounds to me to be a salvation of works.
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The colosseum is full of their blood
Not a single preterist was there. Preterism came around far later.
You are apparently not a dispensationalist of the Darby/Scofield variety. You sound more like a Calvinist who leans toward pre-millennialism.FreeinChrist said:Not exactly....dispensationalism believes that it is the blood of Jesus Christ takes removes sin - from the past, before the cross, and for all believers after the cross. We believe the Law pointed TO Christ who fulfilled the Law, and that Jesus is able to save for all time those who believe in Him. And headed for castastrophe??? Do you call the Second Coming, Millennial kingdom and the new Heaven and New earth 'castastrophe'? What Dispensationism believes is that all that has been done by God and will be done by God glorifies God, for it will show that He does what He says He will do. God wins.
I have. And now you are misrepresenting what I wrote. BADLY!Hitch said:False Accusations of antisemitism.... the frequent ugly comments about DF - you are rude and unChristlike, IMHO.
And yes, I will be complaining.
Saying that jews must wait for salvation is antisemietic and very dispensational. 'Now is the time' and I will rest on apostolic revelation
Go ahead and complain if the truth is not a valid defense I dont care to remain.
Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back at the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross.
hmmm - a few posts and you call me a Calvinist? Shouldn't assume.Patmosman_sga said:You are apparently not a dispensationalist of the Darby/Scofield variety. You sound more like a Calvinist who leans toward pre-millennialism.
Now, you're sounding like a dispensationalist!FreeinChrist said:Two, the future redemption of Israel is a national redemption. but only those who turn to Christ are saved. It is described in Zechariah 12-14.
...I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .
The quote of Scofield, which the above comment is a response to, is from the Scofield Bible and needs to be understood in regards to what it was referencing. His other comments in other parts do show the knowledge that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and that it is the blood of Christ that took away the sin of the OT saints, and is the only way sin is removed since his ressurection.Patmosman_sga said:[/color][/font]
I suppose it goes without saying that Scofield did not understand the true meaning of the Eucharist as both a memorial of Christ's passion and the Church's offering of itself as a living sacrifice in union with Christ's offering on its behalf.
As our communion liturgy reads:
And so, in remembrance of these, your might acts in Jesus Christ, we offer ourselves in praise and thanksgiving as a holy and living sacrifice, in union with Christ's offering for us, as we proclaim the mystery of faith.
Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.
rebaa said:
So then you believe they will recognize who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) and then the blood of bulls and goats will be ordained by God?
OK Sad one explain how this differs from my commentYou mean where he writes:
"Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back at the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross. In neither case have animal sacrifices power to put away sin (Hebrews10:4; Roman. 3:25).
I dont care for yopur os so typical DF style innuendo . Are you too dim to remember that the sacrfices were the subject? I reckon not ,,you're just trying to find something to whine about. Well you came to the right place. So tell me since you have insisted ona literalizinf Ezzy temple why dont you literalize the sacrfices there as wellSo any sacrifices they may do will not be able to cause remission of sin. And you fail in your post to point out that he is commentaing on the temple described in Ezekiel - which, given the dimensions of it, has never been built.
Two, the future redemption of Israel is a national redemption. but only those who turn to Christ are saved. It is described in Zechariah 12-14.Sin offerings huh? Memorial sin offerings? LOL
As far as your commentary of what Scofield believes, I prefer to read Scofield for myself. Comes off diffenetly in his words verses others opinions of his words. Does Scofield give the same wieght to the sacrfices or not?
I do not believe that any future sacrifices that are done by Israel, without recognizing who Jesus Christ is (Saviour, son of God, part of the Trinity) are ordained by God .
But that does not explain what his understanding of the Eucharist was. Those (such as myself) who believe the Eucharist is an escahtological event are less likely to be dispensationalists because we see in the celebration of the sacrament both a participation in the past and present work of God in Christ and an anticipation of the final, consummatory act of God in Christ to bring about the redemption of the world. The Eucharist connects us with the past, encourages us in the present, and prepares us for the future. But, at the Lord's Table, all of time is wrapped up in eternity. Hence, the elaborate "end times" scenarios developed by Scofield, et al. are not only unnecessary and irrelevant (even if they were accurate, which they are not), but more than a little odd. Who needs charts, maps, timelines, and "rapture indexes" when you can experience a foretaste of the ultimate reality of the kingdom of God right now?FreeinChrist said:The quote of Scofield, which the above comment is a response to, is from the Scofield Bible and needs to be understood in regards to what it was referencing. His other comments in other parts do show the knowledge that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and that it is the blood of Christ that took away the sin of the OT saints, and is the only way sin is removed since his ressurection.
rebaa said:
Free what about this quote of yours just written in a hurry?
Who is running from what? I am looking forward to what Christ does today, and will do tomorrow - and to a future physical return of Jesus. I am not Catholic, but I take that you are? Don't they believe in a future physical return of Christ?Patmosman_sga said:But that does not explain what his understanding of the Eucharist was. Those (such as myself) who believe the Eucharist is an escahtological event are less likely to be dispensationalists because we see in the celebration of the sacrament both a participation in the past and present work of God in Christ and an anticipation of the final, consummatory act of God in Christ to bring about the redemption of the world. The Eucharist connects us with the past, encourages us in the present, and prepares us for the future. But, at the Lord's Table, all of time is wrapped up in eternity. Hence, the elaborate "end times" scenarios developed by Scofield, et al. are not only unnecessary and irrelevant (even if they were accurate, which they are not), but more than a little odd. Who needs charts, maps, timelines, and "rapture indexes" when you can experience a foretaste of the ultimate reality of the kingdom of God right now?
When will the Lord return? Next Sunday! The "end" is as near as your local church, and it's something you should be running to, not from.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. While dispies believe that Israel will build a temple and restart sacrifices, which will be interupted in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, they are not sacrifices that are ordained by God. Those sacrifices will do nothing at all for them. their only salvation is recognizing WHO Jesus is - the Son of God who died for our sins. When they turn to Christ, then the Second Coming occurs. According to Zechariah 13, 1/3 come "through the fire".