Presbyterians may split: Conservatives drafting plans for new denomination

[Albion]

It seems to me that there have been more schisms in the Presbyterian church than in any other Protestant denomination. Is that correct?

It might matter how we look at "schism." Usually we mean formal splits, and I don't know what denomination tops the list in that respect. The Lutherans once had many different branches owing to different patterns of immigration, not primarily because of ruptures in any particular body. Anglicans in this country have seen a proliferation of jurisdictions, but partly because of scattered people simply inventing themselves as Anglicans (get a copy of the prayerbook, imitate the liturgy, call yourself Anglican). And Baptists count many different bodies, but it's the nature of that branch of Christianity to have the maximum of independence at the congregational level, so I'd figure the diversity there is nothing special for any Baptist to feel bad about.

Interesting question in any case.

 

[Tomyris]

It seems to me that there have been more schisms in the Presbyterian church than in any other Protestant denomination. Is that correct?

I'm just curious as to how you got that impression.

 

[needinganame]

I'm just curious as to how you got that impression.

Funny you should ask. While training (taking classes in my orientation year) as an elder, formerly with the PCUSA, I distinctly remember "schism training" and the diplomacy needed to lead a congregation through schism. WAY at the beginning of the training. "PRESBYTERIAN 101" so to speak...

Of course, I stated in an earlier post, that I have been a member of more than one church although I have tended to stay Presbyterian with one denominational branch or another. Fair enough, I cannot speak for other denominations not of the reformed faith.

But it seems to me we do argue our way through a lot of territory.

 

[Tomyris]

Funny you should ask. While training (taking classes in my orientation year) as an elder, formerly with the PCUSA, I distinctly remember "schism training" and the diplomacy needed to lead a congregation through schism. WAY at the beginning of the training. "PRESBYTERIAN 101" so to speak...

Of course, I stated in an earlier post, that I have been a member of more than one church although I have tended to stay Presbyterian with one denominational branch or another. Fair enough, I cannot speak for other denominations not of the reformed faith.

But it seems to me we do argue our way through a lot of territory.

There are not only schisms but also mergers. RPCES merged with PCA, for example. I don't know of any others, that I just one I went through.

 

[hopeinGod]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]“What was clear to me was that the very questions the fellowship gathering is asking are the very questions our denomination is asking about — discipleship, evangelism, being missional in serving the surrounding communities,” she said.[/FONT]

Evangelism should be at the very heart of any church, no matter its name. I've been a part of numerous denominations, including Methodist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, nondenominational, and Presbyterian and I found in most of them a stubbornness toward going out into their communities to preach the gospel.

With Presbyterians, as I see it, an unbalanced view of predestination has glued members to pews and onto their couches in their homes. To them, God is supposed to do all the work, not them. Never, as long as I've been alive, has a Presbyterian believer knocked on my door or approached me on the street to present the gospel to me. But JWs have, and so have Mormons.

For many years, I regularly preached on the sidewalks of the communities where I lived. A permit was required to preach on the boardwalk along a touristy area of the beach during my earliest days as a believer, which I acquired. Routinely, I parked my VW Bug on top of which I installed a CB radio/pa system, attached a long cord to the mike, and walked up and down that limited space to preach to tourists and locals.

I've handed out tracts on the streets while I shared the Good News to passersby, spoke to prostitutes hanging out near clubs and along the sidewalks, and to partying sailors who came out of those clubs. Even at rock concerts, I would walk through the crowds with my Bible open to a particular passage, asking folks to please read what I was pointing to.

If a new church is desired, then it will not only take a succession from the old order, but a strong willingness to talk to the lost wherever one goes, in stores, at gas stations, at rest stops, etc. If the message truly has changed one's life, he/she ought to be willing to proclaim it from the rooftops.

Dave

 

[Albion]

Evangelism should be at the very heart of any church, no matter its name. I've been a part of numerous denominations, including Methodist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, nondenominational, and Presbyterian and I found in most of them a stubbornness toward going out into their communities to preach the gospel.

With Presbyterians, as I see it, an unbalanced view of predestination has glued members to pews and onto their couches in their homes. To them, God is supposed to do all the work, not them. Never, as long as I've been alive, has a Presbyterian believer knocked on my door or approached me on the street to present the gospel to me. But JWs have, and so have Mormons.

Of course the JWs and Mormons have. They're notorious for their efforts, but I doubt that it's accurate to single out the Presbyterians for criticism...and certainly not because of Predestination!

Honestly now, how many Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, or Baptists have knocked on your door with literature lately?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course the JWs and Mormons have. They're notorious for their efforts, but I doubt that it's accurate to single out the Presbyterians for criticism...and certainly not because of Predestination!

Honestly now, how many Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, or Baptists have knocked on your door with literature lately?

I have had Baptists come to my door, but not the others.

 

[hopeinGod]

None of the others have either. But the JWs have. That speaks of an even greater lack within the supposed working of the five-fold ministries: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Of course, some, in order to not address this lack, have chosen to announce that that which is perfect has come, so that which is in part has been done away with, speaking of those ministry offices that simply don't seem to want to be filled.

All there is, apparently, are pastors and teachers. Forget about the others. And here I'm thinking Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Tomyris]

Evangelism should be at the very heart of any church, no matter its name. I've been a part of numerous denominations, including Methodist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, nondenominational, and Presbyterian and I found in most of them a stubbornness toward going out into their communities to preach the gospel.

With Presbyterians, as I see it, an unbalanced view of predestination has glued members to pews and onto their couches in their homes. To them, God is supposed to do all the work, not them. Never, as long as I've been alive, has a Presbyterian believer knocked on my door or approached me on the street to present the gospel to me. But JWs have, and so have Mormons.

For many years, I regularly preached on the sidewalks of the communities where I lived. A permit was required to preach on the boardwalk along a touristy area of the beach during my earliest days as a believer, which I acquired. Routinely, I parked my VW Bug on top of which I installed a CB radio/pa system, attached a long cord to the mike, and walked up and down that limited space to preach to tourists and locals.

I've handed out tracts on the streets while I shared the Good News to passersby, spoke to prostitutes hanging out near clubs and along the sidewalks, and to partying sailors who came out of those clubs. Even at rock concerts, I would walk through the crowds with my Bible open to a particular passage, asking folks to please read what I was pointing to.

If a new church is desired, then it will not only take a succession from the old order, but a strong willingness to talk to the lost wherever one goes, in stores, at gas stations, at rest stops, etc. If the message truly has changed one's life, he/she ought to be willing to proclaim it from the rooftops.

Dave

I've done door-knocking....It is actually one of the worst ways to win people to Christ, as are some of the other methods you describe above. My church actually has a high percentage of people who were involved in CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) in college and we use a variety of means for outreach, including programs, even Vacation Bible School. We have AA on site and a number of people have made the transition from drunk to AA to committed Christian. One such is about to go on the mission field from our church. We look at different evangelism methods and use those that actually work. A lot of what you describe has a high annoyance factor and a low return on the investment. I've been involved in some of it as well. I can annoy people in person as well as over the internet. YESSSS!!!!

Reformed people can evangelize with the faith that there are people out there that God has chosen - we KNOW we will be successful with some.

 

[needinganame]

Evangelism should be at the very heart of any church, no matter its name. I've been a part of numerous denominations, including Methodist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, nondenominational, and Presbyterian and I found in most of them a stubbornness toward going out into their communities to preach the gospel.

With Presbyterians, as I see it, an unbalanced view of predestination has glued members to pews and onto their couches in their homes. To them, God is supposed to do all the work, not them. Never, as long as I've been alive, has a Presbyterian believer knocked on my door or approached me on the street to present the gospel to me. But JWs have, and so have Mormons.


Dave

I'm kinda taking offense to that. Offline I'm very soft spoken. The position of me in my career in the community I serve puts me in the center of attention, sometimes quite often.

I sit quietly in the pew... and listen. I take heed to what is said. I suppose if you actively evangelize in the community its pretty easy for you to look down on me. It may also be pretty easy for you to sell a set of encyclopedias, but I'm the kind of guy that is a bookbinder. I gotta make them. You get to sell them.

So I was working with one of my contractors the other day. He made a comment about how one of his neighbors was a pretty good guy to get along with, if you could put up with all of his "Jesus talk". The contractor stands taller than me and outweighs me by a solid 75 pounds. I looked him straight in the eye, he knew he had struck my nerve. I reminded the contractor how his neighbor had prayed for his dad when he was diagnosed with cancer. He didn't know I knew. I reminded my contractor how his dad's doctor wrote him off, and now he is in remission. I told my contractor God doesn't always answer our prayers as we wish, but he does answer every one.

My response was out of my zone. I don't talk much about the salt and the light. But I don't necessarily resist the Call to speak. I'm pretty sure my intervention made and impression. I know this man has walked away from street preachers and run the JW's off his ranch with a gun... but this man and i still drink a lot of coffee and we also still drink beer together, even after this talk about his neighbor.

We all have our time and we all have our place. I'd caution you to criticize the walks of me and those like me. We all have an opportunity to make the "Introduction". I may not knock on your door, but I've been known to slap a guy upside the head when it may straighten him out.

 

[hopeinGod]

Who is worried about "annoyance factors?" That's a pretty sad reason for not actually getting on the streets.

I wonder, had I given up, just where would my friend George be today. For two years, I walked into his head shop located on the beach where I developed a friendship with him, a hippie who liked his dope and lived a laid back life.
His was one of the most exciting conversions of my Christian life.

Located near the boardwalk was his shop where tokers could purchase bongs, rolling papers, etc. On my frequent walks, I routinely dropped by the store to talk. In time, we became good friends. He always had a bar stool sitting near his checkout counter, where I would sit, and we'd talk about lots of things.

On some occasions, we strongly disagreed on various topics. Had I taken those incidences as a reason to quit sharing the Lord, who knows where George might be today?

One day out of the blue, he asked, "You know the stuff you've been sharing with me over the years?"

I replied, "No George, what are you talking about?"

"You know, about Jesus."

"Yea, what about it?"

"I wanna do it."

"You mean you want to repent and give your life to the Lord, George?" I asked.

"Yea."

"When?"

"Right now...." And so we got down on our knees while I led George in the sinner's prayer.

Within a couple of months, George sold his business, applied for entrance into a California seminary and was accepted. He later graduated and became a missionary in South America

 

[needinganame]

Who is worried about "annoyance factors?" That's a pretty sad reason for not actually getting on the streets.

Well, I guess if you have been very effective annoying folks with your mission then you've lived in communities where people are receptive to that approach. And I imagine you are rather perceptive about how to keep the conversation turning toward the path of salvation when people try to walk away or get confrontational. That hasn't been an effective beginning approach for me.

I think the point that some of us are trying to make is that we don't just sit in the pews and then go back to the real world for the next six days. We do pursue the mission of evangelism but in different ways. We direct our energy and offerings in a variety of programs centered around the call of evangelism. I can vouch for that in both the PCUSA and the PCA congregations I have been active with.

And I also think this particular discussion in this thread has gone off course from the original post. If your concerns haven't been addressed here I encourage you to start a new thread.

 

[someguy14]

Presbyterians may split: Conservatives drafting plans for new denomination

1 Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

God is all truth. Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

 

[Albion]

I have had Baptists come to my door, but not the others.

Yeh, I hesitated at that one, but here it's mainly mailers and not door-to-door.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yeh, I hesitated at that one, but here it's mainly mailers and not door-to-door.

If you open it to mailers, I have received some real puzzlers. One Lutheran Church did regular mailings, advertising itself as the place for divorced folks to meet and marry. A Methodist Church which seemed to be desperate to gain members and an identity sent mailers advertising the fact that they were friendly folks, the pastor was just another chap who would befriend you, and, most importantly, he would never make you feel bad by mentioning anything like sin.

 

[Albion]

If you open it to mailers, I have received some real puzzlers. One Lutheran Church did regular mailings, advertising itself as the place for divorced folks to meet and marry.

Wow. That's creative. However, I've remarked to my wife lately that it seems like churches are becoming more interested in finding their niche--any niche--in a crowded marketplace. This just seems to go a step beyond "We're for the youth/come as you are/folk music/have a cup of coffee from our breakfast bar, etc."

A Methodist Church which seemed to be desperate to gain members and an identity sent mailers advertising the fact that they were friendly folks, the pastor was just another chap who would befriend you, and, most importantly, he would never make you feel bad by mentioning anything like sin.

What can I say?

 

[hopeinGod]

So many of the "grace" churches have not only watered down the message, but are willing to attract the unwary via any dubious method. Let's see, there's been body builders, "Christian" rock concerts, magicians, tolerance speeches, and, as already mentioned, singles retreats. The means, I suppose, are viewed as justified by the numbers.

 

[Tomyris]

So many of the "grace" churches have not only watered down the message, but are willing to attract the unwary via any dubious method. Let's see, there's been body builders, "Christian" rock concerts, magicians, tolerance speeches, and, as already mentioned, singles retreats. The means, I suppose, are viewed as justified by the numbers.

The fruit is what is evaluated. I've been involved in the Power Team (body builders - not as one of them, though!!), a magician, Story of the Soul, that theatrical thing that went around (Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames?) but not some of the other things. Oddly enough, there are people who "get saved" and actually stick around and join the church as a result. I don't have any statistics, though. Our Vacation Bible School attracts a lot of unchurched people. Some families join as a result.