Presbyterians may split: Conservatives drafting plans for new denomination

rnmomof7

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Thanks for the 411 Dana. FYI, Member of a congregation in Allegheny Presbytery here. i hope that you keep your membership on this forum for future corrections of misunderstandings about the EPC.

There is also a Ruling Elder on this board from East Presbytery.


We have a local EPA that had split from the PCUSA ..I exchanged emails with the Pastor and attended a service.. My problem with it was that the EPA allows each congregation to decide on women deacons and elders..
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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I'm EPC.:):wave::wave::wave:

No one of any consequence.;)
Great to have you aboard. With all the PCA people around here i was beginning to feel a bit outnumbered. Of course, that's something that most Scots have gotten used to over the centuries. ;)
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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We have a local EPA that had split from the PCUSA ..I exchanged emails with the Pastor and attended a service.. My problem with it was that the EPA allows each congregation to decide on women deacons and elders..
We voted against Female Ruling Elders, and would not call a Female Teaching elder. We do have female deacons, and there is some scriptural basis for that.

Before that time my congregation had two female ruling elders. One left the congregation, one was granted the status of "Elder Emeritus", which prohibits her from holding that office actively again. Not a big deal as the woman is approaching 90 years old.


Case closed.

i had hoped that the EPC was going to eventually outlaw Female Teaching Elders, however with the advent of the New Wineskins Transitional Presbytery and a lot of former PCUSA congregations having recently joined the denomination, that hope died for the moment.

It is an issue that we will have to eventually address, however, it is safe to say that there is close to ZERO chance of a Female being approved for a call and ordained in Allegheny Presbytery...with the possible exception being called to labour out of bounds as say a hospital chaplain.
 
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Tomyris

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We have had female elders (not me). Present leadership is against such in my church. Female elders are great because women feel there is someone in leadership they can open up to in a way they cannot with a man. At the same time there is a compelling case for male-only leadership.

For me there is a sort of schizophrenia. Emotionally I mutter against patriarchial hierarchy, but there it is in the Bible. I'm a complementarian in thought but emotionally an egalitarian. That seems to be an echo of the current struggle among Presbyterians. :)
 
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Albion

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Don't know if it's good or bad, but I'm struck by how almost every detail in the OP's account parallels developments with the Episcopal Church and the churches formed in opposition to it. The only significant difference I notice is that the Presbyterian split-off have many more members and congregations (thanks to a variety of factors I won't go into here).
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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We have had female elders (not me). Present leadership is against such in my church. Female elders are great because women feel there is someone in leadership they can open up to in a way they cannot with a man. At the same time there is a compelling case for male-only leadership.

For me there is a sort of schizophrenia. Emotionally I mutter against patriarchial hierarchy, but there it is in the Bible. I'm a complementarian in thought but emotionally an egalitarian. That seems to be an echo of the current struggle among Presbyterians. :)
i am not in a position to presume to know what went on in the minds of the human writers God used to compile scripture. i'm not even certain that those authors were aware of the full implications of what they wrote.

Have you noticed that the definitive passage in I Tim 3 goes into the character of the wife of the candidate for elder and deacon? It always made me wonder if the male is the candidate or the female, or BOTH.

Or perhaps a better way: That the office was to be held by the male, but excercised by both husband and wife. There are plenty of situations where the man would be clueless.

How does a man teach a woman how to be a Christian Wife? i've never been a married Christian woman...or for that matter a single Christian woman. i have exactly zero pastoral or experiential knowledge of the subject.

How does that same man avoid the appearance of impropriety in situations like that?

While i do support the view that the male is the office holder, i can't exactly be dogmatic about the exercise of the office. Pastoral exercise is a separate matter from didactic exercise.
 
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Tomyris

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I know of an independent charismatic church that will only ordain a couple - singles need not apply. There are also many ministry couples out there, and some of them work well (Jim and Tammy Faye excepted).

When our last pastoral candidate was interviewed by the congregation not so long ago, he was asked what he envisioned his wife's role to be, as some couples seem to be a 2:1 deal, some expect she will take over the nursery and the women's ministry, and others do nothing. She is now "just" a member of the congregation. One pastor's wife I knew went so far as to never sit with hubby during the service, but at the same time she was in charge of the women's ministry and various projects.

I just looked at the English 1 Tim 3 quickly. Based on my lousy memory that loves to make up things I later regret :), the Greek here is not particularly helpful as wife/woman is I think the same word here, and deacon can cover the sense "deaconess".

I'm not equipped now for a lengthy debate on this, and it would be off topic anyway. They have killed whole forests writing on this subject anyway.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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I know of an independent charismatic church that will only ordain a couple - singles need not apply. There are also many ministry couples out there, and some of them work well (Jim and Tammy Faye excepted).

When our last pastoral candidate was interviewed by the congregation not so long ago, he was asked what he envisioned his wife's role to be, as some couples seem to be a 2:1 deal, some expect she will take over the nursery and the women's ministry, and others do nothing. She is now "just" a member of the congregation. One pastor's wife I knew went so far as to never sit with hubby during the service, but at the same time she was in charge of the women's ministry and various projects.

I just looked at the English 1 Tim 3 quickly. Based on my lousy memory that loves to make up things I later regret :), the Greek here is not particularly helpful as wife/woman is I think the same word here, and deacon can cover the sense "deaconess".

I'm not equipped now for a lengthy debate on this, and it would be off topic anyway. They have killed whole forests writing on this subject anyway.
i would be very happy if we (at least my congregation) would at least consistently apply the standards of I Tim 3.

i don't know how they rationalise having no women, YET have (at one time) 1/3 of the session members as divorced/remarried men.

:doh:
Another EPC congregation i was a member of had a Pastor who was on his third marriage. Needless to say, he had a very troubled pastorate before he left. He didn't last all that long.

My present congregation had a deacon (male) --also divorced/remarried-- who was being 'groomed' for higher leadership potential...until it was discovered that he was involved in sexual activities with under aged girls. Now he's currently in the State Prison system last i heard.

You have to wonder what the leadership was thinking when they make some decisions. i have to wonder why it is that leadership thinks that scriptural guidelines don't apply to them any more.

i don't follow John MacArthur, but he did say something of value when it comes to church government and administration. It seems to especially apply to Presbyterians in smaller denominations.

We left the main Presbyterian denomination. Why is it that we have to continue to govern the church as if we were still members of that denomination? Our creeds and view of scripture are now conservative, but we are functioning with a liberal praxis and using the same liberal hermeneutic when making decisions.

It is an area where the church must reform.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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Imaginary conversation I have had:

He: So you should only teach women.
Me:So if a man wanders within earshot, I need to sit down and be silent?
"Man walks quickly away"
So your male children aren't obligated to listen to and obey you?
 
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Tomyris

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i would be very happy if we (at least my congregation) would at least consistently apply the standards of I Tim 3.

i don't know how they rationalise having no women, YET have (at one time) 1/3 of the session members as divorced/remarried men.

:doh:
Another EPC congregation i was a member of had a Pastor who was on his third marriage. Needless to say, he had a very troubled pastorate before he left. He didn't last all that long.

My present congregation had a deacon (male) --also divorced/remarried-- who was being 'groomed' for higher leadership potential...until it was discovered that he was involved in sexual activities with under aged girls. Now he's currently in the State Prison system last i heard.

You have to wonder what the leadership was thinking when they make some decisions. i have to wonder why it is that leadership thinks that scriptural guidelines don't apply to them any more.

i don't follow John MacArthur, but he did say something of value when it comes to church government and administration. It seems to especially apply to Presbyterians in smaller denominations.

We left the main Presbyterian denomination. Why is it that we have to continue to govern the church as if we were still members of that denomination? Our creeds and view of scripture are now conservative, but we are functioning with a liberal praxis and using the same liberal hermeneutic when making decisions.

It is an area where the church must reform.

Perhaps it is the grace of God that I have always enjoyed being in Presbyterian churches with wonderful Sessions of godly men who were there for the right reasons.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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Perhaps it is the grace of God that I have always enjoyed being in Presbyterian churches with wonderful Sessions of godly men who were there for the right reasons.
Well, i will tell you that i'm in the EPC for only one reason: Their confession of faith is, while not completely in line with my beliefs, the closest available Presbyterian Denomination.

i'm glad that we're (i hope :crossrc:) through the days when EPC stood for Everybody Please Come! Words mean things, especially the word Presbyterian. Hopefully our denomination will more fully explore the meaning of that word.

However, it will be an uphill struggle.

i was witness to an administrative commission of a Presbytery in the denomination (i will NOT say which Presbytery), that was looking into some severe difficulties with a congregation i was at the time a member of.

Among the other issues, there were some difficulties with the church run child day care. The difficulties were so severe that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania had pulled the day care's permanent license to operate. The Pastor of the church was blamed for interfering with the operation of the day care, even though he had only insisted that it operate in conformity with the congregational corporate by-laws, and had nothing to do with the violations that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania inspectors had found.

Yet the Administrative Commission attempted to blame the pastor. One of the Ruling Elders from one of the largest congregations in the EPC kept asking questions of the commission members concerning this incident, and finally stated that the Pastor's actions were absolutely correct, and the Administrative commission had no idea what it was talking about.

They got rather indignant and asked this elder who he was to question their judgement...The guy stated: "Well, aside from being a Christian and a Ruling Elder in my congregation, and a member of this Presbytery in good standing, I was also the Chairman of the Food and Drug Administration under President (George H.W.) Bush" You should have heard the collective intake of breath at that announcement. ;)

i was not impressed with the actions of the Commission or the Presbytery. It appeared as if the commission was told to find evidence to support a pre-arranged conclusion to the matter.

Fortunately, my present congregation is a member of a different Presbytery, and i am hopeful for better things.

i'm happy that you have a good Session. It's a good start. What i was trying to get at in my earlier post was that we need to reform our praxis. Many of us are used to the way we did things in our former denomination(s). That's not necessarily the best way to do things, or even necessarily a good way to do things. If the doctrine of our former denominations was such that we were led to leave those denominations, it follows that their praxis would also be corrupt, and we should reject it. After all, why would we emulate what we rejected?

This does not apply exclusively to the EPC, but it is the denomination i am most familiar with. Of the others, i am not qualified to speak. It simply has come to the point where it is very important that the EPC realise that it needs to reform that area of it's life. Now that we have many congregations (257 at my last count) coming into the EPC from the so-called 'mainline' Presbyterian denomination, it is pretty much an imperative.
 
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Tomyris

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There may be accuracy in the statement that the EPC must move beyond "We are no longer in the PCUSA, but we are not really all that conservative, either."
In some senses it maybe is becoming an umbrella church. The Episcopalians love theirs. ;)

I am not in on a lot of things happening at the leadership level - can anyone say Kinder Kuche Kirche? - so I cannot really comment on the denom's praxis, good bad or indifferent.
 
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needinganame

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Imaginary conversation I have had:

He: So you should only teach women.
Me:So if a man wanders within earshot, I need to sit down and be silent?
"Man walks quickly away"
I would really like to reply to this, within the chivalrous manners I was raised with.
I'm afraid it may send the discussion to where it should be opened to another thread. I will likely also regret hitting the "post" button. And I don't wish it to be disrespectful...
So I will close with this thought... Ma'am (Tomyris), I would open the door for you any day of the week, wherever we may be, although we have never met. That is the manner and respect any gentleman should prevail.

Likewise, my smiling bride and I agree that I hold the trump card regarding any decision or discussion we may have... and we have an unspoken agreement that if I exercise that authority she has the obligation to hold it over my head. **my tone may seem sarcastic, however there is a deep realism to my response** And in the upbringing of our children, my boys had better listen to their mother. They really don't want me to get involved. I just took a poll(really!).

So, in conclusion, I tell you that I, as an elder, should never neglect the value of the words you wish to speak. And I have an obligation to put it into perspective and application of the Written Word.
 
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Tomyris

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I would really like to reply to this, within the chivalrous manners I was raised with.
I'm afraid it may send the discussion to where it should be opened to another thread. I will likely also regret hitting the "post" button. And I don't wish it to be disrespectful...
So I will close with this thought... Ma'am (Tomyris), I would open the door for you any day of the week, wherever we may be, although we have never met. That is the manner and respect any gentleman should prevail.

Likewise, my smiling bride and I agree that I hold the trump card regarding any decision or discussion we may have... and we have an unspoken agreement that if I exercise that authority she has the obligation to hold it over my head. **my tone may seem sarcastic, however there is a deep realism to my response** And in the upbringing of our children, my boys had better listen to their mother. They really don't want me to get involved. I just took a poll(really!).

So, in conclusion, I tell you that I, as an elder, should never neglect the value of the words you wish to speak. And I have an obligation to put it into perspective and application of the Written Word.

'Tis a complicated dance, aye. :)
 
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needinganame

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"It seems to me that there have been more schisms in the Presbyterian church than in any other Protestant denomination. Is that correct?"

Well, let's see. The spelling seems germanic. We're rather confrontational. *sigh*
The common theme i've known amongst the congregations I have been a member of "reformed, but always reforming". Change does not come without conflict. There will always be at least two sides to an issue.
Wiki: "A schism is a division between people, usually belonging to an organization or movement religious denomination. The word is most frequently applied to a break of communion between two sections of Christianity that were previously a single body,"

Take my words for what they are worth. I have always sought the Presbyterian form of Church government in my journey of Christ. I've visited many different congregations, not just presbyterian. I won't claim my path is wrong nor right, but what I believe I'm called to pursue.
We are called to the unitiy of Christain faith. I'll resign that we can interpret scripture differently, but there are times we cannot compromise. That is a schism. I say we can depart peacefully.

Presbyterian is a government of the people. I'm kind of thinkin' it comes with the territory.
 
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