predestined

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's helpful, but I've learned to always be sure when I point out that God appears to have designed us to be unpredictable in some ways, that even though I've said it already over and over, to immediately repeat that God is able to nevertheless fulfill His plans (as you've said at the beginning of this post) regardless of what we do. I mean that I've gotten cautious to write more than just one paragraph even about how God has given us a genuine free will (actually meaning some things are not known ahead of time), without adding very quickly yet again (repetitively) another instance of "But He can still accomplish His plans regardless" and things like "What He has decided to cause to happen we can know will happen" and other such reassuring repetitions, so that those that more need to feel extra reassurance that ultimately He is in control of ultimate outcomes can feel reassured, and then better hear the reality that some real choices really are up to us, about whether to focus on Christ, whether to confess and repent after we stumble (that is, whether to heed to urge from the Spirit to turn from our sin).... So I don't even want to write 2 paragraphs about unpredictability or free will now without giving that repetitive confirmation of that other side of it. Else someone will ask me: "you mean God can't know the future" (as if I suggested He knows absolutely nothing even of His own plans!?) or some such, because I've written too long without repeating those.

The problem with a belief in absolute predestination where God knows exactly who is going to be saved and who is to be lost, and the connection between a lack of resolve to travail in prayer for the lost and for the continued sanctification of brothers and sisters in Christ whom we know and love, is that if we are not absolutely and utterly sure that we can pray for an unconverted person and know that God can change their direction, we cannot pray in faith. James says that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways and because he wavers, he cannot pray in faith. Therefore his prayers become ineffective. He ends up asking amiss, because although he does ask God to save the lost soul, in his mind he is thinking, "the soul may be predestined to be lost, but I hope that he can be saved." That is not the prayer of faith. It becomes a prayer of wishful thinking, because he is not sure that God can and will answer his prayer and save a soul that may be predestined to be lost, and God knows that he will be lost no matter what prayers are said on his behalf.

The person trying to pray for the lost may be worried that God may be thinking: "I hear the prayer, but I can't answer it because the person he is praying for is predestined to be lost and I know that he is definitely going to be lost because I know his exact future."

For a person to pray in faith, he has to be absolutely sure that what he is praying is in God's will, and is totally persuaded and sure that when he prays for lost souls, God will hear, answer, and that every resource of the Holy Spirit will be employed to get that lost soul into the kingdom of God. A person will not persevere and travail in prayer for the lost without that absolute assurance. So I don't believe that an ultra Calvinist, who believes in absolute predestination can ever have that assurance. He will never be sure if it is God's will for that person to be saved if he is predestined to be lost.

But then, I don't go the other way either to say that salvation for a lost soul totally depends on that person's free choice at the first instance without the Holy Spirit making the first approach and giving saving faith. I could also not pray the prayer of faith if I believed that it was totally up to that person's free choice irrespective of what God could do. It would make my prayer ineffective because God would be limited by the lost person's free will, and I could believe that God would say, "Sorry I can't answer your prayer for the guy's salvation because no matter what I do, he will choose against Me anyway."

So, my stance is this: I believe that every single person in the world is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. God's intention is that every person should be saved. He is not willing that any should be lost. So He gives the invitation to all. Knowing this, I can pray in faith for a lost soul, knowing that God will hear my prayer and make the gospel understandable to the lost soul. It will then be up to the person to accept the invitation or reject it. If he accepts the invitation and believes the gospel, the Holy Spirit then gives that person saving faith to receive Christ and be saved.

It works like this.
I pray for a lost soul
God enlightens the person's mind and gives understanding to the gospel
The person believes it (or rejects it, in which case nothing further happens)
The person is then encouraged to start praying and to persevere in prayer until God gives him saving faith to receive Christ and to receive assurance of salvation.
Then the person is saved and is on the road to sanctification.

You will see that I don't believe in easy believerism that a person can saunter up to the altar, make some sort of decision and think he is saved, without committing himself to earnest prayer and seeking God for the work of conversion to be done in him.

 

[bling]

I see no serious differences there.



There is no serious question if you have the liberty to choose Christ, salvation and perdition are based on that time of decision. I remember that early on Pharaoh hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, later we learn that God hardened his heart, of course there is a choice. Your free will is always a factor right up until it comes time to be saved, and receive an inheritance along with the elect. That choice is God's alone. Following conversion, you still have a choice, you can be a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin and far too many believers succumb to carnality ruining their witness and leaving then useless with regards to ministry. Always with regards to salvation your choice is secondary to God's, no human institution, agency or individual can decide that not even you can decide that for yourself. That choice belongs to God alone and it never dismisses the human will, it just renders it meaningless compared to the sovereign will of God who judges the thoughts and inclinations of the human heart on the last day.



Absolutely not, God calls us to preach, evangelize and teach for a reason. That is how God holds us responsible.



Why is this so hard to understand? I cannot repent without God revealing my sin and giving me the conviction of my sin, the will to change and the Holy Spirit to cleanse my heart. Why would the Holy Spirit warn us not to harden our hearts in Hebrews, if we had no control over it? Repentance has got to be based on you being poor, miserable, blind and naked, completely defenseless against the unavoidable wrath of God and falling helpless before your judge. When Jesus tells us, Blessed are the poor, the word he is using is the most miserable of beggars, who else would be more hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God. Again and again, the pious, the religious, those who followed the minutia of the Law came to Christ proud and angry, but the poor received him gladly and he fellowshiped with sinners and publicans. Why? Because they would repent and the religious whitewash of vain religion he sent away utterly scorned, some he called children of the devil.

By the way, I'm not dismissing your exposition, I acknowledge that it's a fair estimation of the message.





The question is really why some don't.



Paul struggled with this as well, he trusted God who judges righteously, I don't mean to dismiss your argument, the answer is really that simple.



The key there being, 'by works'...you were saying...



I'm having a little trouble understanding if we have a problem here or not. I don't see any real problem. It's never been a Calvinist argument that we have no choice, but that God's choice prevails with regards to salvation and it is always by grace through faith that we are saved.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Your idea of “choice” and what you mean by “God’s choice prevails” is confusing to me.

You ask the question: “The question is really why some don't (repent)?”

There is the free will choice to either humbly accept God’s pure charity or go on seeking the perceived pleasures of sin.

God is offering salvation to all mature adults who sin, but only those who accept it as pure charity obtain it. The gift of Salvation is God’s part.

 

[zoidar]

no.

Please do reply to my post and explain what you mean instead of just posting Bible verses.

 

[mark kennedy]

Your idea of “choice” and what you mean by “God’s choice prevails” is confusing to me.

You ask the question: “The question is really why some don't (repent)?”

There is the free will choice to either humbly accept God’s pure charity or go on seeking the perceived pleasures of sin.

God is offering salvation to all mature adults who sin, but only those who accept it as pure charity obtain it. The gift of Salvation is God’s part.

There is no question that there is a choice involved, what we should consider carefully, is where our choice yields to the sovereign will of God with regards to conversion. Clearly Paul is speaking of the inclusion of the Gentiles here, but perhaps it gives us something to think about with regards to salvation:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:20-22)
​

Why are some saved and some lost? (See also: Isaiah 10:15; Isaiah 45:9; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 18:6; Proverbs 16:4; 2 Timothy 2:20). The children of perdition are not guiltless in their condemnation, nor the righteous with regards to submitting to God in child like faith. Your choice my provoke or precipitate God's final judgment at some level, I don't think there is much question that they do. But with regards to receiving God's divine nature, becoming a new creature in Christ and the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit we are utterly powerless, sinners in the hands of an angry God who choose as an act of his sovereign will to save some by grace alone.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zoidar]

Verse 14 is your answer.

In Luke 15 we have expanded information. Jesus is addressing the grumbling of the Pharisees that He dined with tax collectors and sinners:

Luke 15:
1Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3So He told them this parable, saying, 4“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5“When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6“And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

I just had one simple point, that the man who is looking for his lost sheep is the Father, and that the Father isn't always finding the sheep He is searching for (matt 18:13). His will is that no sheep will perish (v. 14), yet the sad thing is that people don't want to repent, so even the Father's will is their salvation, it's not always coming true.

What you haven't said is who you believe the lost sheep is in the parable.

 

[redleghunter]

I just had one simple point, that the man who is looking for his lost sheep is the Father, and that the Father isn't always finding the sheep He is searching for (matt 18:13). His will is that no sheep will perish (v. 14), yet the sad thing is that people don't want to repent, so even the Father's will is their salvation, it's not always coming true.

What you haven't said is who you believe the lost sheep is in the parable.

The parable is about finding the lost sheep of Israel. That is who Jesus came to save.

 

[zoidar]

The parable is about finding the lost sheep of Israel. That is who Jesus came to save.

Do you want to keep talking about Luke 15? If so you have to give me more detailed answers, or else I'm giving up.

 

[DeaconDean]

Let's set the record straight.

Has anybody studied the word "predestinate"?

Evidently not.

Here, I cite:

"This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense "to foreordain" "to predestinate.". Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: "h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai," Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, "hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn," 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: "proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou," Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, "proopizw", p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

Those God has chosen, selected, elected, are "predestined" (set a boundary). And that boundary is, as Paul said: "to be conformed to the image of the Son". Plain and simple.

Predestination, says nothing, absolutely nothing involving a choice made by us.

"The word "prooizoo" means properly "to set bounds to"

"The Chosen . . . For Such a Time like This, By Uwemedimo Ekaette, Chapter 5, The Purpose of Predestination, p. 32

"to pre-determine. There is the essential idea of setting bounds or limits and of doing it beforehand"

Albert Barnes, Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Epistles of Paul to the Ephesians. Chapter 1, p. 23

And as Christians, scriptures tell us exactly what those boundaries are.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[redleghunter]

Do you want to keep talking about Luke 15? If so you have to give me more detailed answers, or else I'm giving up.

The Matthew 18 version. What is it about? Losing sheep and not finding them? A tale of how Jesus can’t find all those the Father has given Him?

 

[mark kennedy]

Let's set the record straight.

Has anybody studied the word "predestinate"?

Evidently not.

Here, I cite:

"This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense "to foreordain" "to predestinate.". Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: "h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai," Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, "hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn," 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: "proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou," Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, "proopizw", p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

Those God has chosen, selected, elected, are "predestined" (set a boundary). And that boundary is, as Paul said: "to be conformed to the image of the Son". Plain and simple.

Predestination, says nothing, absolutely nothing involving a choice made by us.

"The word "prooizoo" means properly "to set bounds to"

"The Chosen . . . For Such a Time like This, By Uwemedimo Ekaette, Chapter 5, The Purpose of Predestination, p. 32

"to pre-determine. There is the essential idea of setting bounds or limits and of doing it beforehand"

Albert Barnes, Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Epistles of Paul to the Ephesians. Chapter 1, p. 23

And as Christians, scriptures tell us exactly what those boundaries are.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Actual I have, it's From πρό (G4253) and ὁρίζω (G3724). The word 'pro' is where we get the same prefix and the base is 'horizō', where we get horizon from. The furthest we can see is the horizon of creation, before God created life he predestined that we world be 'chosen' or 'elect', 'in Christ' (Romans 1:4). Yea DD, I've studied it and it's not that complicated a word. Our boundary, our horizon is the special revelation we have going only back to creation. Before that, before the foundation of the earth God predetermined, foreknew (same word in the Greek btw) that the elect would be the righteousness of God in Christ. The Son promised the Father he would deliver the elect, holy, blameless and righteous in him. Albert Barnes got it right, but then again he usually does, our salvation always was and always will be the hidden plans and purposes in Christ, revealed to us in the gospel (Romans 3:21-23).

 

[zoidar]

The Matthew 18 version. What is it about? Losing sheep and not finding them? A tale of how Jesus can’t find all those the Father has given Him?

The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents.

 

[DeaconDean]

Actual I have, it's From πρό (G4253) and ὁρίζω (G3724). The word 'pro' is where we get the same prefix and the base is 'horizō', where we get horizon from. The furthest we can see is the horizon of creation, before God created life he predestined that we world be 'chosen' or 'elect', 'in Christ' (Romans 1:4). Yea DD, I've studied it and it's not that complicated a word. Our boundary, our horizon is the special revelation we have going only back to creation. Before that, before the foundation of the earth God predetermined, foreknew (same word in the Greek btw) that the elect would be the righteousness of God in Christ. The Son promised the Father he would deliver the elect, holy, blameless and righteous in him. Albert Barnes got it right, but then again he usually does, our salvation always was and always will be the hidden plans and purposes in Christ, revealed to us in the gospel (Romans 3:21-23).

Not arguing against anything you said.

I am arguing against the "fatalist" "deterministic" viewpoint.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents.

Wrong.

Show me the "repentance" of the disciples prior to Jesus choosing them?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -Jn. 15:16 (KJV)

Show me ANY repentance when Jesus called Peter and Andrew?

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him." -Mt. 4:18-20 (KJV)

Why must people insist on making salvation, or even the call to salvation something a man does?!?

Geez.

God Bless

Till all afre one.

 

[mark kennedy]

Not arguing against anything you said.

I am arguing against the "fatalist" "deterministic" viewpoint.

God Bless

Till all are one.

We've been over this, deterministic Calvinism isn't fatalistic.

 

[mark kennedy]

Wrong.

Show me the "repentance" of the disciples prior to Jesus choosing them?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -Jn. 15:16 (KJV)

Show me ANY repentance when Jesus called Peter and Andrew?

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him." -Mt. 4:18-20 (KJV)

Why must people insist on making salvation, or even the call to salvation something a man does?!?

Geez.

God Bless

Till all afre one.

Not sure where your going with this but before Jesus called them, they were the Father's

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. (John 17:6)​

 

[Neogaia777]

The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents.

What is, or what constitutes "repentance"...? Or what is a true sign of it, ect...?

God Bless!

 

[DeaconDean]

Not sure where your going with this but before Jesus called them, they were the Father's

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. (John 17:6)​

See here:

The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents.

12 men, walked, talked, saw, learned, eat, and slept, with the Master.

The quote "The Father gives Jesus whosoever repents" is false because there is no indication whatsoever in the scriptures that in order to be one of Jesus', the disciples repented.

In other words, to be given to Jesus, according to the above statement, the disciples would have to have repented. And that is false because it is not found in the scriptures.

"Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." -Jn. 18:9 (KJV)

Yes, God gave them to Jesus, but show me their repentance first as is suggested in the above statement.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

We've been over this, deterministic Calvinism isn't fatalistic.

https://www.monergism.com/blog/calvinism-synonymous-fatalism

To anybody who does not adhere to Calvinism, it is.

We've been over this ever since I joined the forum 14 years ago.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

But I'll tell you what, since it is obvious you think I don't know my butt from a hole in the ground, I'll tip my hat to a better person, and bow out gracefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mark kennedy]

But I'll tell you what, since it is obvious you think I don't know my butt from a hole in the ground, I'll tip my hat to a better person, and bow out gracefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Your taking it a little hard DD, I was raising a point just to see where this goes. Calvinism is not fatalistic and I was only recently made aware it's deterministic, they are two different things. As far as Jesus praying to the Father and saying 'they were yours and you gave them to me', that sounds like repentance was settled before the call of the Apostles. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, when did he actually repent. Your not the only one who actually looks into the meaning of the word 'predestinate' and some of this isn't as simple as it seems on the surface, sometimes it's simpler.

Grace and peace,
Mark