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Featured predestined

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by SayaOtonashi, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What choice do we have but to proceed as if we do have (a) choice...

    God Bless!
     
  2. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    None --- and you do have choices.

    Make them as if they were not predestined to be made and you will find some day that they were.

    Far better to understand predestination now however since a correct understanding of such things may well effect the choices you make in your understanding of God and in your teaching about Him to others.
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    It's a technicality... Because "technically"...? And/then/but regardless...? Ect, ect... What you said basically... And then what I also said basically...

    Let me ask you a question though, K...?

    And that is: Do you think you are in total control of your own life...? Totally, or 100% completely...?

    Because that's what I find a lot of "free will" people fighting, is the fact, or they don't like the idea that they are not in control of their own life...

    Which is a very rebellious attitude to have...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    But like I said, what choice do we have but to proceed as if we do have choice, ect... Not being able to know anything about our destiny, ect... Even though God knows, ect...

    God Bless!
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And God "does know", ect...

    To claim that He does not know, might be to claim that He's not God, ect...

    God Bless!
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    But, it's a "technicality" that I don't want to torment you with, ect...

    What choice do we have to proceed as if we do have (a) choice, ect...

    God Bless!
     
  7. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe in free will, but it's not like saying you have 100% control of your life. Some things you wouldn't even consider choosing if this and this didn't happen. I don't believe anyone can choose God by oneself, God is leading us to a point where we have to choose. But somewhere down the line, we have to make a choice by free will.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Supposedly.

    God Bless!
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Look if I get "too deep into it/this with you" then I will have to talk about and mention things I am not allowed to talk about on here anymore K...?

    So, have a good day and,

    God Bless You!
     
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God bless and Christ love, Neogaia!
     
  11. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I've noticed that often when people speak of 'predestined' being about our individual lives (while in fact scripture says God planned for the salvation of humankind through Christ, to all that would believe (John 3:16-17), even before the world!), they might be saying, in different wording, that God is in control.

    Since we know that God is in ultimate control of the things that actually matter, such as our rescue and spiritual protection...then we are indeed 'predestined' in that way. :)

    So often, people simply use the same words in somewhat different ways, without realizing it, and that causes much arguing when they might largely agree and actually have language/wording misunderstandings.

    Many are troubled by the idea (alternative theory) that God choose ahead of time to send some souls to the second death, even before that person is born (as compared to some point later in time). But fortunately that idea/theory very extensively contradicts the Bible, and we can know it is not true therefore, and encourage others that this theory, this idea of predetermined destruction of souls even before birth, is not aligned to the Bible as a whole, and thus is false, and therefore they do not have to lose faith in God over that wrong idea.
     
  12. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    No one can be 100% in control of their life. I think we all agree about that.

    But we do know from scripture that we have choices, that they are ours and no one else' choices, and that we are responsible for them.

    Beyond answering your direct question there - I'm getting a little lost as to where you are coming from as you seem to be replying to yourself or something.

    What gives with that?

    The bottom line with predestination is that God has always known, from before there was even a creation, everything that would happen in history. He is omniscient and always has been.

    That being the case - it has always been 100% certain that what He has always known will happen will happen. Thats the basic truth about predestination. It is an absolute necessity for it to be an inescapable doctrine based on what we know about God and His relationship with the creation as revealed in the scriptures. It simply can't be any other way.

    Beyond that - the scripture makes it clear that He knows everything that can and will happen even in totally different circumstances.

    Beyond that God is omnipresent and the entire creation is holding together and existing by the power of His Word --- and His actions in any particular paradigm are too numerous to even imagine.

    So the correct doctrine concerning predestination that should be grasped reads something more more like this:

    God knows, always has known, and always will know everything that will happen "if He acts in certain ways" and He knows, always has known, and always will know everything that could happen "if He acts in other ways".

    He is God and He is not and never has been or ever will be constrained in any way other than His own nature to act in any particular of the innumerable ways He can act - which will result in known results.

    This does not even begin to address any particular concerns we might have about the inability of man, individual choices for salvation, election and whatever other subjects always come up. But those are issues to be discussed only among those who have a basic grasp on the inescapable truth of the predestination of all things.

    The problem with this subject is that people too often want to discuss free will vis a vis predestination without even having passed the concepts related to predestination 101.

    Within those constraints of us being creations and Him being the creator with His sovereign choices being the first cause and ours being 2nd causes even as they are ours to make ------- we have our being.

    People need to grasp the basic facts in the matter before advancing to more advance doctrines related to our free will and His judgment of our choices and how they relate - particularly concerning salvation.

    If they try to tackle those advanced issues without fist assimilating the basic doctrines first - they are likely to be just offering their opinion in the end - and that quite likely will formed in some way by emotion and not revealed scripture teaching.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    You have to know what Hell or the second death actually is...?

    When you understand that, it all makes perfect sense actually...

    How is it not aligned to the Bible...?

    God Bless!
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    This simple fact still stands:

    If you think you have free will or choice, then you also have to think that there is/are some things God just doesn't know, or never knew, or doesn't know now, ect, ect, and there is just no getting around that "fact"...

    Are you saying that...?

    And if so how do you explain it...?

    God Bless!
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    To put it in the simplest way possible, "eternal death or dying" is being stuck here in this kind of existence, or this or these kinds of places, "forever"... or at least for as long as this or these kinds of existences or these places exist, that is...

    Eternal death is being kind of "recycled" here, absent of ever transcending or any kind of transcendence ever... To a higher or greater plane of existence, ect... Never ever doing that, never ever destined or predestined for that in the first place, ever... From the very beginning, ect...

    That is the simplest way I can put it...

    God Bless!
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Now can we know for sure who's who, and what's what...? I don't think we can... God does, but we do not... Which is why we are commanded to handle it, and deal with it, and others, in the way that we are commanded to, (do it, handle it) ect...

    Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and never judge the state of another's salvation "for sure"... Lest you condemn yourself, and "you" wind up being one of the ones, or one of the only ones, who actually stands condemned, ect...

    God Bless!
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    That is why Jesus said things like "He who does not hate his life here, his own soul here", ect, enough here, ect, may not ever go beyond here, ect...

    How much do you hate your life here...?

    And I'm not talking about hating just "things" here, like temporary situations or circumstances, that can always change, but your very existence here, and this place here, and in this place here, in general, ect, or the things that maybe cannot and will never change here, ect...

    Creates a longing for something "more", something much better, something far superior, ect... Than here, ect...

    God Bless!
     
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Or I should say "here" "now" ect, because there is the future hope of God's Kingdom being set up on this earth... but for the most part, except for an extremely small remnant, this will only be populated by people who were previously raptured or had died before then, ect...

    The rest might be recycled elsewhere maybe, in other places where existences like these and this and the way things are here still, and are here now still, might still be so (now) still, or there still (now) (or then still), ect...

    Sorry if that last part is a little confusing, but you will hopefully get it maybe, I think (maybe), ect...

    God Bless!
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Your Love of or for the "people" here or other people here, must be greater than your hatred of or for this life or this kind of existence here though, which must run pretty deep, or your not going to make it probably...

    God Bless!
     
  20. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    God does know everything. That's a fact.

    One of the things He has always known is what I just wrote in that sentence for instance.

    It was my sentence and I was not coerced in any way to write it the way I did. Nor did I have to "think" that God is not omniscient in order to say that it was my free choice to do so.

    Had I chosen to write it a different way (in capital letters for instance) that would have been what God knew I would do from long before the foundation of the world.

    While knowing of His omniscience demands that I believe that my choice was predestined to occur - His omniscience in no way made me choose what I chose to do.

    Although I don't claim to be a Calvinist - the Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith puts this fact in a rather clear way. "God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

    Our choices "establish" what is predestined. E.G., if I choose "A" then "A" was predestined. If I choose "B" instead, it does not change what was predestined. It simply means that "B" was predestined. It's still my choice.

    That principal can be applied to things like my choice to receive Jesus in 1958 as opposed to rejecting the gospel call. It was indeed predestined to happen. But it was still my choice and reckoned to me for justification and righteousness because of it. But then - that's discussing things for which we have not completely agreed on a basis of understanding for. (Understand scripture doctrine 101 before trying to tackle doctrine 102 - i.e. "line upon line and precept upon precept".)

    This is not to say that my choice was made in a vacuum with God only watching from afar. He is not only transcendent to His creation. He is omnipresent within His creation as well according to the scriptures. He is also free to do any of the innumerable things He does or any of the things He does not do as well.

    For instance - He has chosen my brain to have function at this time. He is omnipresent in every portion of my brain - allowing me to write the sentence I spoke about. He could have chosen to change the manner of His presence and I might have had a thought lapse which caused another choice to be made for instance. Likewise He could have chosen to end my life altogether yesterday and I wouldn't have written the sentence at all.

    The variables He is involved in are, as I said, innumerable - each having a consequence of some kind. It boggles the mind how He keeps all of the balls in the air. But then that's why He's God and we aren't.

    Thus - the scriptures always say that He is the one "predestining things" and no one else. If He does certain things, there will be consequences. If He does other things, there will be other consequences. Numerous scriptures bear this out.

    But that is not to say that the necessary predestining of all things by God is in conflict with our free will. It may be in some instances and in others not. But predestination and free will are not exclusive and necessarily in conflict.

    Nebuchadnezzar's ability to act normal for a certain period vs. my ability to choose to write the aforementioned sentence comes to mind.

    Sometimes a person's ability to make choices at all as well as what those choices will be may indeed be effected by what God predestines and sometimes not.

    Big subject - but very important to understand in order to have a good and balanced systematic theology.

    Again - these are basic concepts for us to know. Everyone should get them straight in their minds before attempting to answer the thorny questions concerning free will vs. predestination and election in relationship to salvation for instance. Otherwise we will just be blowing in the wind.

    As an aside here - when "debating" those who stress free will to the exclusion of God's sovereignty - I often feel that they are speaking of a different God from the omniscient, omnipresent, creator, sustainer, and providentially involved God that the scriptures picture for us.

    It seems that in their zeal for uprooting anything they consider "Calvinist" they leave behind doctrines that should have been used as building blocks for the other doctrines they are discussing or formulating.

    Time is precious and I'm going to have to limit these posts now.

    P.S.
    You don't have to quote yourself or anyone else in order to make a statement (or many consecutive statements as you have been doing here for some reason).

    Just write something in the box with nothing being "replied" to. Then hit "post reply" to publish your thought.

    In any case - some of your comments are merely conjecture and philosophy and not based on scriptures revelation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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