predestined

Halbhh

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Then God does not know the future...?

God Bless!
see this post also (linked): predestined

regarding significant things vs. trivial things. Many believe God has given us a genuine free will (not in appearance only, but actual).
 
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Halbhh

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He perverted the Law.
Do you mean the Old Covenant Law? If so, how? -- after all Paul wrote about Saul keeping it. (An aside, Paul didn't kill, but instead delivered over to persecution, even unto death).

Later in Acts 22 --
Then Paul said: 3“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished."


If you mean instead what Paul called the Law of Christ (Gal 6), then yeah, Saul wasn't keeping that yet.
 
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Halbhh

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He perverted the Law.


They were similar in one aspect. Both were condemned sinners in need of God's Grace.


This was after Paul was converted.


They all had one thing in common....condemned before a Holy God by the one sin of Adam and their own sins.

We generally agree on all this (assuming you mean the new Law of Christ, and not worrying about whether your idea of original sin is this or that particular way). (it may be helpful to keep in mind I've read through the New Testament carefully and fully, repeatedly, meaning that you should assume things such as that I know Saul got converted, and then as Paul wrote his epistles, and other very basic things, yes? It's concerning you thought you need to point that out. How badly may you be mis-guessing about what I'm saying if you think I lack even the most basic details? I fear you've then been misunderstanding my posts. Perhaps reread with more of an expectation I'd know such things, just to see if it radically recasts what the wording I used seems to mean? ).
 
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zoidar

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As you can see from the above, this is Biblical. Meaning drawing out the truth from Scriptures.

The human argument against this is obviously "well that's not fair." If that be the case any objections should be addressed to God and His will, purpose and decrees. Not to Reformed theology.

I think you agree this is ONE way to understand these questions, these Bible verses. There are many other ways to see this. There is a reason ("this is not fair" is not the reason) we have different Churches with different theology. The question is why you choose to believe this theology. Why?
 
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His student

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.............The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.
:amen:Right on both counts - and amply displayed here in this forum whenever the subject comes up.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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Later in Acts 22 --
Then Paul said: 3“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished."


If you mean instead what Paul called the Law of Christ (Gal 6), then yeah, Saul wasn't keeping that yet.
Paul had a different view:

1 Timothy 1: NASB

8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
 
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His student

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As you can see from the above, this is Biblical. Meaning drawing out the truth from Scriptures. The human argument against this is obviously "well that's not fair." If that be the case any objections should be addressed to God and His will, purpose and decrees. Not to Reformed theology.
The Westminster Confession is the product of 140+ Protestant theologians meeting over some 10 years of deliberation. Their goal was to say in simple terms exactly what the scriptures teach on these subjects when all of scripture is considered and none are taken by themselves.

In the Protestant tradition - they took the Bible as the authoritative Word of God, from which all theological reflection must be based.

They were required to show all the scriptures which come to play on any particular doctrine and on which they based their conclusions.

That in itself does not guarantee the accuracy of their conclusions.

Never the less - I am often struck by so many opinions on these matters which contradict their conclusions while being based only on portions of the scriptures and, amazingly, on the opinions of men as to what is and isn't fair on the part of God.
 
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Then God does not know the future...?

God Bless!
He knows everything that is knowable. The question is: if the future doesn't exist yet, is it knowable?
 
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I would consider that theological fiction.
have you got a better explanation? Are you saying that the decisions you make now does not determine your future?
 
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Here is the dictionary definition of arbitrary.

Definition of arbitrary
1a : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will an arbitrary choice When a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.— Nehemiah Jordan
b : based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something an arbitrary standard take any arbitrary positive number
2a : not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority an arbitrary government
b : marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power protection from arbitrary arrest and detention
3 law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law The manner of punishment is arbitrary.

Some of those parameters do apply to election.

It does "seem" to be random and capricious. It does " seem" to be unreasonable.

But - when seen in the "meaningful context" of the scriptures it is experienced as meaningful.

Some of the definition is, of course, absolutely correct. God is not restrained by any one or anything other than His own nature and He does things for His own convenience.

But our election is not from necessity. God was perfectly happy without us in His Kingdom.

It is true that He exercises election by His own discretion.

But no one in Calvinism says that He is a tyrant for doing so.

When anti-Calvinists describe the Calvinist God as being arbitrary and capricious - they are saying that He would be a tyrant if election is true.

But Calvinists affirm that God has a good purpose for everything He does and that, although it may "seem" random and purposeless, it is not.

Calvinists do state, however, that there is nothing found in us that deserves such grace as our election and calling.

While Arminians say that God's calling and election is because of our reception of Him and His will - Calvinists recognize that no one can come to the Son in the first place without that calling, election, drawing and special enlightenment.

As the Lord says: "Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in Heaven."
The Calvinist position is that sinful man, in his natural state, will always choose against God unless the Holy Spirit intervenes and gives the person the ability to choose for Christ. This is why the greatest prayer warriors were Calvinists, because they knew that the only way to get souls saved was, and still is, to get before God and intercede for them.

If, like Arminians, sinful man does have the ability to choose for Christ if enough Scripture is quoted to him to persuade him of the truth, then why bother to get before God and spend time interceding for him? Might as well put all the effort into Bible bashing the guy until he makes the right choices!
 
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zoidar

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I think I pointed that out? It's Biblical and puts the sovereignty of God above all other things.

Because it puts the sovereignty of God above all else is a reasonable answer. Because it's Biblical really isn't, because you can't know, only believe it's Biblical.
 
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redleghunter

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Their goal was to say in simple terms exactly what the scriptures teach on these subjects when all of scripture is considered and none are taken by themselves.
An expository and systematic approach. Most wise indeed and how the apostles approached the OT.

In the Protestant tradition - they took the Bible as the authoritative Word of God, from which all theological reflection must be based.
Indeed this is the systematic approach and by extension systematic theology. Harmonizing and having Scriptures interpret Scriptures is key.

They were required to show all the scriptures which come to play on any particular doctrine and on which they based their conclusions.
Yes, and as you mentioned earlier ensuring there was no doctrinal "fratricide" by creating 'self-made contradictions." Once again a pillar of consistency with regards to systematic theology.

That in itself does not guarantee the accuracy of their conclusions.
Right, we always examine doctrinal statements with Scriptures.

Never the less - I am often struck by so many opinions on these matters which contradict their conclusions while being based only on portions of the scriptures and, amazingly, on the opinions of men as to what is and isn't fair on the part of God.
Astute observations. You are spot on. The Reformers were exegetes and systematically approached all revealed doctrines in Holy Scriptures. They drew out the truth of the texts (exegesis) and went from there.

Whereas in your observation, the flipside of the coin is eisegesis. Which is taking a concept or idea and entering the Scriptures to develop a theology. Some of what they come up with will be accurate with a plain literal interpretation, but much of the theology is jigsaw puzzle of verse across the Scriptural spectrum (Leviticus here, John here, Proverbs there, some other epistle there) to collect 'enough' verses to 'prove' the idea or concept. This 'proof texting' collection is usually, not all the time, destroys the context of the passage, chapter or even entire book, Gospel or epistle, thus creating a pretext.

What happens then when both 'worlds' collide? A perceived contradiction of 'dueling' verses.

For example, Reformed will cite in defense of perseverance or preservation of the saints the follow passage:

Ephesians 1: NASB
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


And also:

1 Peter 1: NASB
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


The Scriptures here speaks without much elaboration. We who are Justified by faith and born again are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. An imperishable and undefiled inheritance which will not fade away and reserved in Heaven.

The usual response to that is "well over there it says you can lose your salvation" and then we get an out of context vague reference which does not say that, but which is now supposed to negate what was clearly expounded on by the apostles. Such a view must 'prove' their idea or concept by nuking the Bible by pitting verses against each other. The ensuing battle is to cast enough doubt that the other side acquiesces due to futility. Or the exegete and one who gives an expository in response to the proof text bomb asks for the opposition to do the same, aka argue from the Scriptures which usually ends the debate because either they don't want to or can't. The latter being the usual.

I've often looked at some of these discussions like you are standing on a football field, holding a football and wearing all the football gear and the opposition shows up with a football bat.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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He knows everything that is knowable. The question is: if the future doesn't exist yet, is it knowable?
Is this a partial Open theism view? I know there are different shades of open theism.
 
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zoidar

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Yes because that is what the Scriptures reveal...

Why?

Reveal? Meaningly, what the scriptures say seeing them with a specific pair of theological glasses.

Why? Because how we understand the Bible depends on glasses.
 
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redleghunter

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have you got a better explanation? Are you saying that the decisions you make now does not determine your future?
This is what I'm saying:

“Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:9-10)

There is nothing I have done (past), nor now doing (present) nor will do (future) that is hidden from God.

That's a huge difference than saying I am a cosmic robot.
 
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