predestined

[Mark Quayle]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Every decision anyone makes --call it whatever you want: self-determinism, changing your fate, or whatever-- is simply accomplishing what God has planned from the beginning. Even the Devil, by his own evil will, is doing exactly what God created him for.

Consider the possibility that "fate" is like "chance" --only a word we use to help us handle big themes. God does what he does. We can call it fate if we want, but it doesn't change the fact that we make our own way, just as God planned. Consider that for the Creator to foreknow all things is the same as for him to cause all things.

As for "chance", I would like someone to prove there even is such a thing.

 

[redleghunter]

No, not interested in reading tons of pages to get an simple answer to a simple question. Why don't you just tell me in a couple of sentences why Calvinism election isn't arbitrary election, can you do it or not?

Ok a response in kind then is in order.

Predestination and Foreknowledge is in the Bible thus proclaiming God is sovereign outside of and inside of His own creation. St Paul teaches this and St Augustine and Reformed theology teach these Biblical truths.

Now prove this wrong.

 

[redleghunter]

Acts 10 NIV

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. "

Some context:

1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

4Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. "

Why did God send Peter to Cornelius?

Did Cornelius call Peter to come to Him.

WHO set this all in motion and by Whose will (note I capitalized there) and purpose did these events come about?

And did someone call down the Holy Spirit or did the Holy Spirit act according to His will and purpose in filling the Gentiles?

There’s a very good answer to this.

 

[redleghunter]

This is a lot of reading to do.

Please let me know if you freely choose to read it and respond.

 

[redleghunter]

Becoming righteous by faith doesn't mean you necessarely persevere to the end, but only if you are given perseverance as a gift from God. So no one can ever know if he or she is among those given perseverance.

I would say reformed teaching is closer to Augustine than to Paul. I believe Augustine had the wrong understanding of Paul and the Bible, probably because he was lacking language skills in Hebrew and Greek

When you extend the courtesy of responding to my post I’ll be here. But you did not.

 

[redleghunter]

Because most of us do not endure all the things that job had to endure to prove a point.

I don’t see how that negates what Job said and what God said in the later chapters.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, not interested in reading tons of pages to get an simple answer to a simple question. Why don't you just tell me in a couple of sentences why Calvinism election isn't arbitrary election, can you do it or not?

Probably the best reason to know it isn't arbitrary is the reason why God has chosen, is the very reason for Creation in the first place --and this is to his own Glory --the Elect are the members of the Bride of Christ --the dwelling place of God. This is a perfect construction, each member precious but part of the whole, not a thrown together bunch of whatever turns up, but each member chosen for that very part to which he has ordained them.

 

[Halbhh]

Why did God send Peter to Cornelius?

Did Cornelius call Peter to come to Him.

WHO set this all in motion and by Whose will (note I capitalized there) and purpose did these events come about?

And did someone call down the Holy Spirit or did the Holy Spirit act according to His will and purpose in filling the Gentiles?

There’s a very good answer to this.

We both know and agree I think on quite a few things -- God chose that Cornelius would be converted, and also taught Peter that Gentiles would be accepted/converted, and God set in motion for Peter to come to him and bring him the gospel and convert and baptize him. It's not from us, but from Him. Don't we agree? I think so, but you can surely add or correct it to wording you like.

The other part of Acts 10 though we learn as we read that is very helpful for this thread is something about *who* God chooses to save! It's quite significant, since it both presents it clearly, but also is entirely recognizable from the scripture repeatedly elsewhere -- the humble/those who fear God/those that want to do what is right (all 3 of these being connected or several sides of one thing). Of course, one could ask whether that is volitional, and it seems from all the many times in scripture we are taught in various ways, the teaching is because we might have ears to hear. The Bible talks to us as if we can choose whether to listen, whether to be humble.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

There are different meanings of the phrase "free will." What do you mean by the phrase?

A video has one good ending and has other endings. God has the ending creating but it's your job to choice to follow him willingly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God is mutable?

Mutable? Sounds like religious gobbledygook to me!

 

[redleghunter]

Mutable? Sounds like religious gobbledygook to me!

Not to a theologian such as yourself kind sir.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Job is an exception, not a norm.

It was Job who said that God gives and God takes away. But he didn't have all the background facts, so we can't form a doctrine over what he said. Job probably did not know of the existence of Satan, so from his perspective he would have thought that it was God who gave him his wealth and God who took it all way, instead of fully knowing that God is a good God who gives out of His abundance and the devil is a bad devil who has come to steal, kill and destroy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not to a theologian such as yourself kind sir.

I don't know what the word means! Has it something to do with mutation?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because most of us do not endure all the things that job had to endure to prove a point.

Oh, I don't know. What about the multitudes of Jewish people in Nazi Germany in the 1940s?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Was it not the adversary that was given permission to destroy Job?

But the adversary did not destroy Job! God was able to prove Job's faithfulness to Him despite the loss of possessions, wealth, family and personal health. Because Satan is the god of this world, he has dominion over the unrighteous. But God protects the righteous, and Satan needed permission for God to withdraw His protection from Job, but with the limitation that Satan was not permitted to kill him. Satan does not need permission to harm the unrighteous because they are condemned already and are under his domination.

 

[redleghunter]

We both know and agree I think on quite a few things -- God chose that Cornelius would be converted, and also taught Peter that Gentiles would be accepted/converted, and God set in motion for Peter to come to him and bring him the gospel and convert and baptize him. It's not from us, but from Him. Don't we agree? I think so, but you can surely add or correct it to wording you like.

That’s how it is recorded so yes pretty clear.

 

[His student]

Okay.... what's wrong with my logic exactly?

Although I took logic in college and enjoyed it very much - it's hard for me to classify exactly which "logical fallacy" you are committing. Probably either composition/division or burden of proof - or perhaps a combination of both.

Here is an example of the kind of wrong assumptions you and Kenny are making:

Statement: Mr. Jones will never beat his daughter Mary.

Wrong conclusion and logical fallacy: Therefore Mr. Jones beats children. Furthermore Mr. Jones will beat his son James.

 

[redleghunter]

The other part of Acts 10 though we learn as we read that is very helpful for this thread is something about *who* God chooses to save! It's quite significant, since it both presents it clearly, but also is entirely recognizable from the scripture repeatedly elsewhere -- the humble/those who fear God/those that want to do what is right (all 3 of these being connected or several sides of one thing). Of course, one could ask whether that is volitional, and it seems from all the many times in scripture we are taught in various ways, the teaching is because we might have ears to hear. The Bible talks to us as if we can choose whether to listen, whether to be humble.

You have my full attention here. It’s an interesting philosophical pursuit. However, not all chosen had a good track record. Paul comes to mind. He was on a persecution bender and God directly intervened. I don’t think we can chalk that up to an exception to the rule. We both probably have insights into friends and loved ones who may not have been living like Caligula but close to it. An aka like Paul they were steaming at full warp speed to an early death. My very own older brother.

So speaking philosophical here and observing folks in the Bible it’s a mixed bag of Shepherd boy David youngest humble and meek but a pursuing the heart of God. Then shifty Jacob deceiving his own father becomes the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. Not to mention his own sons were a shady lot one being Judah who visits a prostitute ending up having a son through her and she’s his daughter in law. There are more of course from this shifty class and of course Saul of Tarsus who admitted his complicity in murder and torture.

Then of course Cornelius, Blessed Mary, Joseph, Zacharias and Elizabeth that list supports your theory.

But I commend you on your insight on this. One thing we need to consider which puts the overt sinners on equal footing with the overt righteous. We are all condemned before a Holy God and are all sinners needing Christ as savior and Lord. Which loops back to Cornelius...Even though the he was a “good dude” doing good deeds, God moved mountains to get the Gospel to Him. Even though Paul deserved to be abandoned by God as Paul willfully in the name of the Law actually broke the commandment to not murder, Christ Himself appeared to him stopping him in his tracks and basically gave him no choice in the matter. Jesus said Paul would be his instrument for the Gospel and this was before Paul made it to Damascus.

Looking at Acts we do find the results no matter the background are the same. Both Paul and Cornelius believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and received the Holy Spirit. It does not take any philosophical approach to realize God accomplishes this amazing Grace for His Praise and Glory.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know what the word means! Has it something to do with mutation?

Inconsistent liable to change.

As opposed to immutable. As in God is immutable consistent with His Nature.

It applies to God’s eternal covenant promises. If His covenant promises are eternal, and His prophecies have and will come to pass, then by His omniscience He truly knows the future even though it has not happened yet.

 

[Radagast]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Reflecting again on this and other posts of yours, you should be regularly attending church.

If that's not possible for some reason, you should attend church electronically, by listening to online sermons from some respected pastor.