predestined

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God does not know the future?

If the future does not exist yet, how can it be knowable?

 

[zoidar]

But - for the record for you and anyone else reading along - Calvinism does not teach that God predestines and or elects "arbitrarily".

How then does Calvinism teach that God predestines and or elects?

 

[redleghunter]

Perhaps not. But. I would be interested to know what percentage of Christians doubt or have strong reservations about the currently popular idea of what I personally label full determinism, which is any version of expressing the idea that God has planned not only important things for our individual lives/salvation, but instead of only those that He has planned and controls even trivial things also (e.g. "is in control" so that when I get a flat tire He did it to me every time (while He could indeed at some key time for a specific need of my soul in contrast) -- stuff like when a light bulb burns out, or other unimportant things, that God has caused it specifically instead of only as nature in operation.
See, I think many people doubt the full determinism ideas, no matter how often others say them.

"Full determinism" is not predestination. Perhaps address Predestination and Foreknowledge from Scriptures before attributing your theories on others. Because what you posit above is not Calvinist in origin. If you think so, prove it.

Many for example do not think God always is the cause of cancer or accidents.

Poor Job. Someone should have told him that the Lord does not give or take away. Someone should have told him God was waiting for calamity to befall him.

Job 1: NASB
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10“Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11“But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” 12Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

13Now on the day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 14a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15and the Sabeans attacked and took them. They also slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 16While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 17While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and took them and slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 18While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died, and I alone have escaped to tell you.”

20Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.

21He said,
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked I shall return there.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the LORD.”

22Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Rather, we know/believe He can intervene and alter outcomes when we pray. In other words, many think -- a mainstream view then -- that nature causes cancer usually, but then we can pray and ask for His intervention, to various outcomes (whether getting more time, or even passing on but into salvation, eternal life!).

You mean God employs a sovereign deism?

So, sure, probably few even know about corporate election, but many have basic views that align to it.

That's probably because corporate election is not part of a systematic theology. That's a problem.

 

[redleghunter]

If the future does not exist yet, how can it be knowable?

God is mutable?

 

[redleghunter]

How then does Calvinism teach that God predestines and or elects?

Ephesians 1, Romans 9-11, Romans 8 There's more but you already refused to discuss Ephesians 1 for some reason.

 

[friend of]

Poor Job. Someone should have told him that the Lord does not give or take away. Someone should have told him God was waiting for calamity to befall him.

Job is an exception, not a norm.

 

[redleghunter]

Job is an exception, not a norm.

How so?

Satan accuses each of us before God (Revelation 12:10)

How is Job an exception?

 

[friend of]

How is Job an exception?

Because most of us do not endure all the things that job had to endure to prove a point.

 

[zoidar]

Ephesians 1, Romans 9-11, Romans 8 There's more but you already refused to discuss Ephesians 1 for some reason.

That's not an answer to the question ... and you know perfectly well why.

 

[friend of]

Someone should have told him that the Lord does not give or take away

Was it not the adversary that was given permission to destroy Job?

 

[redleghunter]

Because most of us do not endure all the things that job had to endure to prove a point.

Was that really a response.

 

[redleghunter]

Was it not the adversary that was given permission to destroy Job?

Oh my.

 

[redleghunter]

That's not an answer to the question ... and you know perfectly well why.

At least two, me being one has provided Biblical expository definitions of Predestination and Foreknowledge. Would you like to go back to those posts?

 

[Radagast]

Free will. That we have the choice to reject or deny salvation. That while God has the end but we have the free choice to choice own own ending. That if I accept God my predestination is clear.

You're not going to get a sensible answer to that on the Internet.

 

[zoidar]

At least two, me being one has provided Biblical expository definitions of Predestination and Foreknowledge. Would you like to go back to those posts?

No, not interested in reading tons of pages to get an simple answer to a simple question. Why don't you just tell me in a couple of sentences why Calvinism election isn't arbitrary election, can you do it or not?

 

[Radagast]

How then does Calvinism teach that God predestines and or elects?

For His own good reasons.

 

[MDC]

How then does Calvinism teach that God predestines and or elects?

I can tell you most certainly that it wasn’t based on any merits that He foresaw in them. As the free will theist want to believe. But according to His purposes and reasons left to Him alone, He chose to show mercy on some.

 

[Halbhh]

Acts 10 NIV

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. "

Some context:

1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

4Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. "

 

[His student]

How then does Calvinism teach that God predestines and or elects?

That would take an entire lesson on the doctrine of predestination. Volumes have been written

But - so called "Calvinism" teaches exactly what the scriptures teach. It teaches that the will of God is good and perfect and that "All" things work together for good.

God predestines everything for a purpose. According to scripture, that includes the lives of the elect and even the lives of evil men and angels.

But - it is not up to me or any Calvinist to show that God is not arbitrary or capricious. If the charge is made that He is - the burden of proof or scriptural substantiation is on the one making the charge not on those not making the charge.

Calvinists make no such charge. Rather they say as do the scriptures that the Lord has reasons for everything He does - even if they are not readily apparent to us at this time.

Speaking of His Word - God says that in Him we have our being and that all things were created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things consist.

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

God does not send His Word forth capriciously. He accomplishes exactly what God intended Him to accomplish.

His accomplishments (whether they are shown forth in His grace or His righteous judgment) are not arbitrary or capricious. Rather, according to scripture they are quite narrow and line up perfectly with God's good and perfect will.

 

[sawdust]

It's just at times and a lot later I have been doubting about if I'm truly a believer.

Doubts are understandable. We retain our fallen nature until the resurrection or death (whichever comes first). We still live in a fallen world with all its lies and misdirections and there is a spiritual enemy who would love to take every opportunity he can to stick the knives in (so to speak) so don't worry about having doubts. It's learning how to handle them them that matters, not getting them.

At the end of the day it's not about you (or me) and what we have but about God and who He is and what he can do. It is His power (grace) that saves us and this is what you must rest in. When I was a new Christian starting out in my walk I would get so confused because there were many people saying very many different things. I didn't know what to believe half the time so I would throw everything out until I got to the things I was absolutely certain of which, at the time, was that Jesus Christ was Lord and Saviour. I knew nothing else with certainty, that was the measure of my faith. That is where I rested and relied on the Lord to make known the rest. He never failed me and slowly but surely he led me in the paths I needed to grow in the knowledge of Him, the doubts came less and faith grew which, is your assurance.

We have been given eternal life, there is no gift more precious. It is worth every effort on out part to strive with our whole being yet the irony is that it is resting (in faith) that produces the results we desire to see in our lives. Do not let your heart be troubled, sit quietly and know He is The Lord.