predestined

[His student]

Don't you believe that names can and will be removed from that book, meaning nothing is in stone.

Please show me where in the following verse it says that names can and will be removed from that book.
"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Revelation 3:5

Don't you believe John 3:16?

Of course. Neither I nor any proponent of predestination disagrees with that verse. Wherever did you get the idea that we do not believe that verse.

Then you are saying they are not predestined? Good, I would agree, my whole point actually.

No - I am saying that predestining that men sin is not the same as authoring that sin or forcing or programming men to sin.

That is your straw man presentation of the meaning of predestination. I, and others who believe in predestination, are always careful to spell that fact out very clearly before, after and during any presentation of the doctrine of predestination. And yet you still insist on misrepresenting our beliefs.

Westminster Confession of Faith - chapter 3 (of God's eternal decrees)
"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

 

[SayaOtonashi]

There are different meanings of the phrase "free will." What do you mean by the phrase?

Free will. That we have the choice to reject or deny salvation. That while God has the end but we have the free choice to choice own own ending. That if I accept God my predestination is clear.

 

[redleghunter]

ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and
ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE
St. Augustine
ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE

I HAVE now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent,—or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was.

He does not mention losing being saved by grace. In fact the operative word is 'gift' in his writings. One either has the gift or does not. He makes it clear here that if one does not persevere they did not have the gift. Which is quite similar to perseverance of the saints in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Of the Perseverance of the Saints
I. They, whom God has accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve his Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]​

Augustine admits in debating these matters with others that there were play on words.

But here I present the fuller argument of Augustine which puts into perspective what he is really teaching here and not the one quote you provided. It's two parts because Augustine was well winded.

Part I:

First from your own quote, Augustine believed perseverance was a 'gift from God.'

And for some reason you did not underline the following:

But how should he who Has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering,— and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived—for the sake of argument—ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years' standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the stedfastness of his faith.​

Bolded above underlined. If one does not persevere to the end, then they don't have the gift to persevere. He's making that abundantly clear here that there is not some perseverance but perseverance. Meaning it is not perseverance if one does not persevere. He is setting up for a more concrete explanation. It is imperative to go beyond the introduction where concepts are discussed. We will see why:

From your linked source chapter 2:

Chap. 2 [II.]—Faith is the beginning of a Christian man. Martyrdom for Christ's sake is his best ending,


This matter being settled, let us see whether this perseverance, of which it was said, "He that persevereth unto the end, the same shall be saved," is a gift of God. And if it be not, how is that saying of the apostle true: "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake"? Of these things, certainly, one has respect to the beginning, the other to the end. Yet each is the gift of God, because both are said to be given; as, also, I have already said above. For what is more truly the beginning for a Christian than to believe in Christ? What end is better than to suffer for Christ? But so far as pertains to believing in Christ, whatever kind of contradiction has been discovered, that not the beginning but the increase of faith should be called God's gift,—to this opinion, by God's gift, I have answered enough, and more than enough. But what reason can be given why perseverance to the end should not be given in Christ to him to whom it is given to suffer for Christ, or, to speak more distinctly, to whom it is given to die for Christ? For the Apostle Peter, showing that this is the gift of God, says, "It is better, if the will of God be so, to suffer for well-doing than for evil-doing." When he says, "If the will of God be so," he shows that this is divinely given, and yet not to all saints, to suffer for Christ's sake. For certainly those whom the will of God does not will to attain to the experience and the glory of suffering, do not fail to attain to the kingdom of God if they persevere in Christ to the end. But who can say that this perseverance is not given to those who die in Christ from any weakness of booty, or by any kind of accident, although a far more difficult perseverance is given to those by whom even death itself is undergone for Christ's sake? Because perseverance is much more difficult when the persecutor is engaged in preventing a man's perseverance; and therefore he is sustained in his perseverance unto death. Hence it is more difficult to have the former perseverance,—easier to have the latter; but to Him to whom nothing is difficult it is easy to give both. For God has promised this, saying, "I will put my fear in their hearts, that they may not depart from me." And what else is this than, "Such and so great shall be my fear that I will put into their hearts that they will perseveringly cleave to me"?​

Augustine establishes perseverance is a gift and quotes Scripture (Jeremiah 32:40), where God puts His fear in the hearts of His saints that they will not depart from Him. Expanded quote here and notice this is relation to the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 32: NASB

36“Now therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, ‘It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.’ 37“Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety. 38“They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
​

Augustine continues with perseverance as a gift of God and relates this to even our basic needs we beseech God daily in prayer. That the saints pray to endure to persevere and God, as with all our needs wants our lips to request. A very sobering chapter here pointing to saving faith. Why? Because the saints will always be in communication with God (praying) for all needs, protection and to persevere:

Chap. 3.—God is besought for it, because it is His gift.


But why is that perseverance asked for from God if it is not given by God? Is that, too, a mocking petition, when that is asked from Him which it is known that He does not give, but, though He gives it not, is in man's power; just as that giving of thanks is a mockery, if thanks are given to God for that which He did not give nor do? But what I have said there, I say also here again: "Be not deceived," says the apostle, "God is not mocked." O man, God is a witness not only of your words, but also of your thoughts. If you ask anything in truth and faith of one who is so rich, believe that you receive from Him from whom you ask, what you ask. Abstain from honouring Him with your lips and extolling yourself over Him in your heart, by believing that you have from yourself what you are pretending to beseech from Him. Is not this perseverance, perchance, asked for from Him? He who says this is not to be rebuked by any arguments, but must be overwhelmed with the prayers of the saints. Is there any of these who does not ask for himself from God that he may persevere in Him, when in that very prayer which is called the Lord's—because the Lord taught it—when it is prayed by the saints, scarcely anything else is understood to be prayed for but perseverance?​

Augustine continues to show from beginning to end our faith is a gift from God. In doing so he continues to make the point we pray even for what has already been given or what has already been received. Continuing in chapter 4:

And a little after, still arguing about that self-same matter, and teaching that we entreat perseverance from the Lord, which we could in no wise rightly and truly do unless it were His gift, he says: "We pray that this sanctification may abide in us; and because our Lord and Judge warns the man that was healed and quickened by Him to sin no more, lest a worse thing happen unto him, we make this supplication in our constant prayers; we ask this, day and night, that the sanctification and quickening which is received from the grace of God may be preserved by His protection." That teacher, therefore, understands that we are asking from Him for perseverance in sanctification, that is, that we should persevere in sanctification, when we who are sanctified say," Hallowed be Thy name." For what else is it to ask for what we have already received, than that it be given to us also not to cease from its possession? As, therefore, the saint, when he asks God that he may be holy, is certainly asking that he may continue to be holy, so certainly the chaste person also, when he asks that he may be chaste, the continent that he may be continent, the righteous that he may be righteous, the pious that he may be pious, and the like,—which things, against the Pelagians, we maintain to be God's gifts,--are asking, without doubt, that they may persevere in those good things which they have acknowledged that they have received. And if they receive this, assuredly they also receive perseverance itself, the great gift of God, whereby His other gifts are preserved.​

And after a long discourse on the Lord's Prayer Augustine arrives at his concrete conclusion:

Chap. 9.—When perseverance is granted to a person, he cannot but persevere.


Now, moreover, when the saints say, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them,— which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him,—that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received.​

Continued....

 

[redleghunter]

Part II:

ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and
ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE
St. Augustine
ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE

I HAVE now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent,—or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. But how should he who Has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering,— and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived—for the sake of argument—ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years' standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the stedfastness of his faith.

He makes it even more clear the link between what is in Heaven to be on Earth is reflected in our prayers on what we ask for. That if we ask God will grant and as such as faith is a gift from God so is perseverance. And that as a gift prayed for and granted cannot be lost:

​

Chap. 10 [VI.]—The gift of perseverance can be obtained by prayer.


But you write that "these brethren will not have this perseverance so preached as that it cannot be obtained by prayer or lost by obstinacy." In this they are little careful in considering what they say. For we are speaking of that perseverance whereby one perseveres unto the end, and if this is given, one does persevere unto the end; but if one does not persevere unto the end, it is not given, which I have already sufficiently discussed above. Let not men say, then, that perseverance is given to any one to the end, except when the end itself has come, and he to whom it has been given has been found to have persevered unto the end. Certainly, we say that one whom we have known to be chaste is chaste, whether he should continue or not in the same chastity; and if he should have any other divine endowment which may be kept and lost, we say that he has it as long as he has it; and if he should lose it, we say that he had it. But since no one has perseverance to the end except he who does persevere to the end, many people may have it, but none can lose it. For it is not to be feared that perchance when a man has persevered unto the end, some evil will may arise in him, so that he does not persevere unto the end. This gift of God, therefore, may be obtained by prayer, but when it has been given, it cannot be lost by contumacy. For when any one has persevered unto the end, he neither can lose this gift, nor others which he could lose before the end. How, then, can that be lost, whereby it is brought about that even that which could be lost is not lost?​

Augustine is stating the obvious here. The saints will persevere to the end because they have.

And if the last quote from Augustine in the same work you quoted from is 'clear as mud' this should be clear. Augustine here really hammers down what "in Christ" means:

​

Chap. 14.—It is God's grace both that man comes to Him, and that man does not depart from Him.


This grace He placed "in Him in whom we have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things." And thus as He worketh that we come to Him, so He worketh that we do not depart. Wherefore it was said to Him by the mouth of the prophet, "Let Thy hand be upon the man of Thy right hand, and upon the Son of man whom Thou madest strong for Thyself, and we will not depart from Thee." This certainly is not the first Adam, in whom we departed from Him, but the second Adam, upon whom His hand is placed, so that we do not depart from Him. For Christ altogether with His members is—for the Church's sake, which is His body—the fulness of Him. When, therefore, God's hand is upon Him, that we depart not from God, assuredly God's work reaches to us (for this is God's hand); by which work of God we are caused to be abiding in Christ with God—not, as in Adam, departing from God. For "in Christ we have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things." This, therefore, is God's hand, not ours, that we depart not from God. That, I say, is His hand who said, "I will put my fear in their hearts, that they depart not from me."​

It's all about Jesus Christ.

And to dispel the notion "well if it is predestined I don't have to do anything at all." Augustine rightfully and beautifully notes God wants to hear from us---prayer which as James says The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

​

Chap. 15.—Why God willed that He should be asked for that which He might give without prayer.


Wherefore, also He willed that He should be asked that we may not be led into temptation, because if we are not led, we by no means depart from Him. And this might have been given to us even without our praying for it, but by our prayer He willed us to be admonished from whom we receive these benefits. For from whom do we receive but from Him from whom it is right for us to ask? Truly in this matter let not the Church look for laborious disputations, but consider its own daily prayers. It prays that the unbelieving may believe; therefore God converts to the faith. It prays that believers may persevere; therefore God gives perseverance to the end. God foreknew that He would do this. This is the very predestination of the saints, "whom He has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and unspotted before Him in love; predestinating them unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He hath shown them favour in His beloved Son, in whom they have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace, which has abounded towards them in all wisdom and prudence; that He might show them the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Him, in the dispensation of the fulness of times to restore all things in Christ which are in heaven and which are in earth; in Him, in whom also we have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things." Against a trumpet of truth so clear as this, what man of sober and watchful faith can receive any human arguments?​

Most of the above chapter from Augustine should look familiar. It is from Ephesians chapter 1 which I posted several times in this thread.

St Paul and St Augustine rest their case. Reformed theology is in harmony with both brothers in Christ.

Links to quotes:
ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II (Augustine)​

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks for asking for evidence! No, it's not my blog. I didn't link it to prove anything, but to show what I meant.

I thank you for the link and please don't take this the wrong way...It's not a source which argues for your assertion. The blogger was 'thinking out loud' and making some very bold assertions of their own unsubstantiated by the history or scholarship. Just to note, on sites like this one some evoke "Gnostics" to derail a thread. Not saying that was your intent but when someone hits the "Gnostic button" they better have good reason to do so.

Look if you want to discuss Eph 1 you have to start a new thread. There have been many discussions on other threads on Eph 1. I'm not really looking forward of discussing it again, because it has led nowhere.

The subject is predestination, Ephesians 1 is on topic because Paul discusses predestination.​

 

[friend of]

I can go into a restaurant and pay the owner for every meal ordered that day. I can tell everyone there that I have done so... However, some will decide that they don't like the food there and not eat a meal.

Christ paid the price for the sins of the world. Only those that acknowledge Him and accept salvation will be granted it.

This only means that the sins are paid for... they are only forgiven is asked.

This metaphor doesnt work because according to Calvinism God controls the desires of those who eat there. If they desire to eat there or not is determined by God.

 

[friend of]

Please show me where in the following verse it says that names can and will be removed from that book

This is a different quote from Rev

I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” Revelation 3:5

If Jesus is saying he's not going to blot out the name of the overcomer from the book of life, then it stands that the possibility of him actually blotting out the name of someone (one who fails to overcome) is a possibility...

 

[zoidar]

I thank you for the link and please don't take this the wrong way...It's not a source which argues for your assertion. The blogger was 'thinking out loud' and making some very bold assertions of their own unsubstantiated by the history or scholarship. Just to note, on sites like this one some evoke "Gnostics" to derail a thread. Not saying that was your intent but when someone hits the "Gnostic button" they better have good reason to do so.


The subject is predestination, Ephesians 1 is on topic because Paul discusses predestination.​

Thanks for the info! I had no idea there was this "code" to Gnosticism.

I have no problem with you quoting from Eph 1, I just won't go into a discussion with you here, since I believe it will take up too much of the thread. I'm sure there is enough things to say about it to have a long thread just on that chapter.

Btw. you didn't say anything about David Bercots claims from the clip ...

 

[Halbhh]

We have some inner goodness before God calls us which enables us to respond?

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. (Acts10:34-36)

I see Peter is explaining the Good News not only for Jews.

Was there something more?

Definitely that, but also "who fear Him and do what is right" is Peter's wording here, so I'll tell you many things you already know and connect the pieces -- to fear God lines up with scripture generally, as we know we are instructed by Christ to fear God also. To fear God will also mean one will not have arrogance to think one is self-made righteous. We fear God because we know we have sinned enough that without Christ we would be destined for death. (Once we are converted and begin to love God, then the perfect loves that comes casts out fear generally.) Put yet another way "God resists the proud". Put yet another way "unless you change and become like one of these little children you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven". So, Cornelius then was acceptably one that feared God, was not arrogant. So, that's a condition. The call is conditional in that way. That's the other powerful implication of Acts 10, not only about Gentiles, but what makes a person ready to be converted, that they not be arrogant, that they want to do what is right. Another meaningful part here is that in a church when someone is arrogant, they are yet to be converted, and we can seek to testify to them about the wonderful mercy of God in response to our own sins and desperate need.

 

[Halbhh]

It’s mainstream?

Perhaps not. But. I would be interested to know what percentage of Christians doubt or have strong reservations about the currently popular idea of what I personally label full determinism, which is any version of expressing the idea that God has planned not only important things for our individual lives/salvation, but instead of only those that He has planned and controls even trivial things also (e.g. "is in control" so that when I get a flat tire He did it to me every time (while He could indeed at some key time for a specific need of my soul in contrast) -- stuff like when a light bulb burns out, or other unimportant things, that God has caused it specifically instead of only as nature in operation.
See, I think many people doubt the full determinism ideas, no matter how often others say them.

Many for example do not think God always is the cause of cancer or accidents.

Rather, we know/believe He can intervene and alter outcomes when we pray. In other words, many think -- a mainstream view then -- that nature causes cancer usually, but then we can pray and ask for His intervention, to various outcomes (whether getting more time, or even passing on but into salvation, eternal life!).

So, sure, probably few even know about corporate election, but many have basic views that align to it.

 

[Halbhh]

You can’t say us means church in the same passage and change us to individuals when it is convenient. He is addressing individuals.

Hmmm...not sure what you are saying exactly, so this guess may be beside the point, but for instance I'm not seeing the article on corporate election as saying something like: 'the church has salvation, and you have to join the one that does so you can' -- it's not saying anything like that. It's not saying the Church has control over salvation, and you can't get it unless some local men say you can, or anything like that. God can save someone alone in the desert, without men deciding to do it, but instead the Spirit deciding.

One thing the corporate election article means to me is that every human being has a chance at least initially.

 

[JacksBratt]

This metaphor doesnt work because according to Calvinism God controls the desires of those who eat there. If they desire to eat there or not is determined by God.

Like I said... "good for Calvinism..."

Do you hold the same views as "Calvinism"?

There are lots of theological theories out there. I obviously don't agree with God controlling desires. That is not free will. We would then just be robots.

 

[bling]

Predestination is not fate, that is not what is meant by Paul when he uses the term translated 'predestination' nor what Calvinists are talking about when they use it. The Greek word is proorizō (προορίζω G4309, from πρό G4253 and ὁρίζω G3724). It's composed of two Greek words, 'pro' which is the exact same meaning as the prefix 'pro', in the English, and horizō, which is where we get the word horizon from. The dictionary definition from Vine's Dictionary:

Determine, Determinate: pro, "beforehand," and No. 2, denotes "to mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain;" in Act 4:28, AV, "determined before," RV, "foreordained;" so the RV in 1Cr 2:7, AV, "ordained;" in Rom 8:29, 30 and Eph 1:5, 11, AV, "predestinate," RV, "foreordain." (Vine’s Dictionary)
​

There is nothing in this word indicating anything remotely like pagan fate, the way your using it, it doesn't even resemble how Greek mythology describes fate. It's the plans and purposes of God beyond the vanishing point of our horizon, even before the foundation of the world, that God ordained that would include us as the elect, adopted as sons, and the righteousness of God in Christ. As many times as I've seen the subject of predestination come up I have yet to see the true theological meaning of this word expounded by critics of Calvinism. The questions raised by the doctrine of predestination are asked and answered in the New Testament in no uncertain terms, not that I expect we will get to them because we never do.

Predestination is whatever God’s hand and counsel determined before to be done (Acts 4:28). That we as the elect would be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). That the elect would be called, justified and glorified according to God’s mercy and perfect will (Rom. 8:30). That the mystery of God’s will would be revealed unto our glory (1Cor. 2:7). The adoption as sons according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1:5). That in Christ we would obtain an inheritance after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11).

Those plans and purposes will not change whether you go on to faith, righteousness and glory, or find yourself in the fires of perdition. The emphasis is always, because it must be, the perfect will of God. Calvinism does not teach fate, eternal security is synonymous with eternal life and it's either that or eternal death, there is no third choice. Of course you have free will, at the feeding of the 5,000 a few choose to stay and most of them chose to leave, but your will is meaningless with regards to any personal merit you might have with regards to salvation. We don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, to even ask the question is not of faith (Rom. 10:5-13). On the last day God will expose the secret intentions of the heart, therefore we are told not to judge anything before the proper time when God judges righteously (1 Cor. 4:5). Shall clay say to the maker, what makest thou? (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21).

Whatever you think of predestination, as taught by Calvinists, stay in your lane, God will reveal all things in the fullness of time. Because no Calvinist worth his salt and certainly no New Testament writer, has ever embraced the pagan notion of fate. That is an absurdity that boarders on slander, I've never heard any such thing from my Calvinist brethren, nor do I expect I ever will. The emphasis is always on God's sovereign will, his plans and purposes in Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark

We can probably agree:

God has predestined to save the elect, glorify the elect, adopt the elect, and so on.

There are fewer chosen than are called.

The question left is how are the chosen (elect) determined from those non-elects?

The elect are predestined to be gifted, but is each individual gifted predestined to be elect from the non-elects?

Are you choosing: (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21) to show God predestined arbitrarily some to be elect?

Isaiah 45: 9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? 10 Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?

Isaiah writes extensively about the about what is going to happen to all those who do not repent and what will happen to those who follow God.

People caught up in the tragedies of their own bad behavior will quarrel with God and ask: “ Why did you make me this way?”

Isaiah goes on to write in that same chapter:

Isaiah 45: 22

“Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.


Is God asking them to do something they cannot do?

“Turn” means repent, so why does God ask that of man if He is the one who causes them to repent?


Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Some Bible versions have honor and dishonor so we need to get into what is being said:

To begin with you may not be using the best translation of this verse:

“honor and others for dishonor” is King James Version.

“…for special purposes and some for common use” is NIV,

“one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?” RSV

“one vessel for honorable use and another for common use” NASB

Fortunately Paul used these exact same Greek words conveying a very similar situation description of vessels (vessels being used in both verses) 2 Tim. 2:20-21

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

τιμή special purpose (honorable in the KJV)

ἀτιμία common purpose (dishonorable in the KJV).

Looking at Paul’s description of honorable (special) and dishonorable(common) vessels in Timothy we see the following:


In a big house there would be both common vessels (like watering vases) and special vessels (decorative vases for flowers) but there are not going to have dishonorable vessels or vessels made for destruction!

But verse 21 gives us added information 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Paul is telling us common (dishonorable vessels) can become special vessels (holy) by cleansing themselves

Going back to Romans 9: The potters of the first century did not make clay pigeons (something only for destruction), but everything that would leave the potter’s shop had his mark of quality whether it would go into the temple or to be used to hold waste water.

It does not say the common vessels were prepared for destruction, but the objects of his wrath—were prepared for destruction, so what are objects (people/vessels) prepared for God’s wrath?

The Bible tells us repeatedly those who refuse God’s mercy are those who go to hell, so they are like common or special vessels which are broken. cracked, and unsuitable for their task, the potter must have them destroyed or repaired, because they have his name on them.

You have to keep in mind the context of the entire book of Romans, plus the chapter and the section 9-11, to best understand Ro. 9:21.

The entire book of Romans seems to be written to resolve the huge very significant problem within the Roman church itself of the division between the Jewish and Gentile Christians and Paul is the best person to address this issue. Ro. 9-11 seems to come down hard on the Jewish Christians (who seem to be seeing themselves as superior to the gentile Christians) by Paul emphasizing the fact that they both have salvation hurdles to overcome, so Jewish Christians (described here as being made by God for a special purpose) and Gentile Christians (described here as being made with a common purpose) are still equal when it comes to the really significant matter of salvation. Romans has lots of diatribes (the most of any book) where the subject is not presented as a lecture but more as a debate with support for the wrong conclusion of a question always coming first, even if the correct one-word answer is given immediately after the question like Ro. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! But in keeping with the diatribe style Paul gives lots of support for thinking God is unjust both before and after the question. The right conclusion always comes at the end of the section:

Ro. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

We cannot take the diatribe support Paul gives from the “mistaken” made up debater and use it support our conclusion because we will also be mistaken.

Everyone leaves the potter’s shop different (we are all born to different families), but when it comes to salvation it does not matter if we are Jew, gentile, rich, poor, black or white.

 

[His student]

This is a different quote from Rev I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” Revelation 3:5
If Jesus is saying he's not going to blot out the name of the overcomer from the book of life, then it stands that the possibility of him actually blotting out the name of someone (one who fails to overcome) is a possibility...

I assure you that I mean no offense when I tell you that you're using faulty logic.

The passage simply does not address whether or not names can or will be blotted out.

False assumptions are often made of course by using such logic and Kenny'sID is a prime example.

It remains poor logic whatever your theology is and whether or not you believe that names can be blotted out.

Whether or not they can (the non eternal security theology) - you cannot make the case by using this particular passage.

 

[His student]

[QUOTE="bling, post: 73628947, member: 216174"............]Are you choosing: (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21) to show God predestined arbitrarily some to be elect?.....[/QUOTE]
Bling - I don't know what your position is on Calvinistic predestination and election and you needn't tell me.

But - for the record for you and anyone else reading along - Calvinism does not teach that God predestines and or elects "arbitrarily".

John Calvin didn't believe or teach that and I know of no so called Calvinist living or dead who believes that either.

Capriciousness and the making of arbitrary decisions are not things anyone I know of assigns to God.

 

[redleghunter]

This metaphor doesnt work because according to Calvinism God controls the desires of those who eat there. If they desire to eat there or not is determined by God.

I think it would be more that God gives certain customers the palate for what's on the menu. Call it 'effectual palate.'

 

[redleghunter]

This is a different quote from Rev

I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” Revelation 3:5

If Jesus is saying he's not going to blot out the name of the overcomer from the book of life, then it stands that the possibility of him actually blotting out the name of someone (one who fails to overcome) is a possibility...

The saints do overcome...by the Grace of God.

 

[mark kennedy]

We can probably agree:

God has predestined to save the elect, glorify the elect, adopt the elect, and so on.

There are fewer chosen than are called.

I see no serious differences there.

The question left is how are the chosen (elect) determined from those non-elects?

The elect are predestined to be gifted, but is each individual gifted predestined to be elect from the non-elects?

Are you choosing: (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21) to show God predestined arbitrarily some to be elect?

There is no serious question if you have the liberty to choose Christ, salvation and perdition are based on that time of decision. I remember that early on Pharaoh hardened his heart against the word of the Lord, later we learn that God hardened his heart, of course there is a choice. Your free will is always a factor right up until it comes time to be saved, and receive an inheritance along with the elect. That choice is God's alone. Following conversion, you still have a choice, you can be a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin and far too many believers succumb to carnality ruining their witness and leaving then useless with regards to ministry. Always with regards to salvation your choice is secondary to God's, no human institution, agency or individual can decide that not even you can decide that for yourself. That choice belongs to God alone and it never dismisses the human will, it just renders it meaningless compared to the sovereign will of God who judges the thoughts and inclinations of the human heart on the last day.

“Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

Is God asking them to do something they cannot do?

Absolutely not, God calls us to preach, evangelize and teach for a reason. That is how God holds us responsible.

“Turn” means repent, so why does God ask that of man if He is the one who causes them to repent?

Why is this so hard to understand? I cannot repent without God revealing my sin and giving me the conviction of my sin, the will to change and the Holy Spirit to cleanse my heart. Why would the Holy Spirit warn us not to harden our hearts in Hebrews, if we had no control over it? Repentance has got to be based on you being poor, miserable, blind and naked, completely defenseless against the unavoidable wrath of God and falling helpless before your judge. When Jesus tells us, Blessed are the poor, the word he is using is the most miserable of beggars, who else would be more hungry and thirsty for the righteousness of God. Again and again, the pious, the religious, those who followed the minutia of the Law came to Christ proud and angry, but the poor received him gladly and he fellowshiped with sinners and publicans. Why? Because they would repent and the religious whitewash of vain religion he sent away utterly scorned, some he called children of the devil.

By the way, I'm not dismissing your exposition, I acknowledge that it's a fair estimation of the message.

Looking at Paul’s description of honorable (special) and dishonorable(common) vessels in Timothy we see the following:

Paul is telling us common (dishonorable vessels) can become special vessels (holy) by cleansing themselves

The question is really why some don't.

Going back to Romans 9: The potters of the first century did not make clay pigeons (something only for destruction), but everything that would leave the potter’s shop had his mark of quality whether it would go into the temple or to be used to hold waste water.

It does not say the common vessels were prepared for destruction, but the objects of his wrath—were prepared for destruction, so what are objects (people/vessels) prepared for God’s wrath?

Paul struggled with this as well, he trusted God who judges righteously, I don't mean to dismiss your argument, the answer is really that simple.

The right conclusion always comes at the end of the section:

Ro. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

The key there being, 'by works'...you were saying...

We cannot take the diatribe support Paul gives from the “mistaken” made up debater and use it support our conclusion because we will also be mistaken.

Everyone leaves the potter’s shop different (we are all born to different families), but when it comes to salvation it does not matter if we are Jew, gentile, rich, poor, black or white.

I'm having a little trouble understanding if we have a problem here or not. I don't see any real problem. It's never been a Calvinist argument that we have no choice, but that God's choice prevails with regards to salvation and it is always by grace through faith that we are saved.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zoidar]

St Paul and St Augustine rest their case. Reformed theology is in harmony with both brothers in Christ.

Links to quotes:
ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS and ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE
CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II (Augustine)​

This is a lot of reading to do. If I understand Augustine right there is a difference from becoming righteous by faith and persevering to the end. Becoming righteous by faith doesn't mean you necessarely persevere to the end, but only if you are given perseverance as a gift from God. So no one can ever know if he or she is among those given perseverance.

I would say reformed teaching is closer to Augustine than to Paul. I believe Augustine had the wrong understanding of Paul and the Bible, probably because he was lacking language skills in Hebrew and Greek.

"After he became a Manichaean, Augustine continued to read philosophy, but was soon hampered by his not knowing much Greek. When aged in his twenties he would have found it difficult to read a Greek philosophical or theological text, and when later as a bishop and an author he realised that he really needed to know Greek, by then it was impractical for him to undertake a formal study of it.

Although he gradually acquired some use of the language, he was never really at home in it. His acquaintance with Greek literature was very limited. It has been questioned, for example, whether he was able to use, in the original, either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Apparently, he was in the habit of using translations of the Greek author, Plato (Confessions8, 2)"

AUGNET : 1311 Greek language

 

[friend of]

Whether or not they can (the non eternal security theology) - you cannot make the case by using this particular passage.

Okay.... what's wrong with my logic exactly?