predestination

[rnmomof7]

For God so loved the world, the world meaning all men; that he gave his only begotten Son (He died for all men) that "whosoever believeth", (All men have the opportunity to be saved) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The first important thing top realize is that the word world (Kosmos )

Does not not necessarily mean the entire world.

To the Jews the "world" meant non Jews. The Jews had no respect for the gentiles, they felt thy had an exclusive relationship with the God of creation .
Over and over it was impressed on them (much to their chagrin) that God was the God of not only the Jews but the gentiles also.
This was a hard saying to them because of their pride.

Kosmos

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19[/color]

So as you see even the greek scholars deny that the greek word Kosmos means the ENTIRE world

The atonement is limited in your own words to "whosoever" believes , so it is not universal. We ask who will believe? Those to whom God grants repentance and Belief..a limited atonement

We agree that all men have the opportunity to be saved. God restrains no one from coming to Him. He will save whoever comes.

But the reprobates will never choose to come. We choose according to our preferences . They prefer to be Lord of their own life. To select a god of their own choosing or just to be their own god.

Salvation is of God He is the author and finisher of our salvation

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men. John 12:32.. All means "all". Do not manipulate the passage to say all the elect. Treat it with the same respect that I treated your passage in Acts.

That scripture refers back to the serpent on the pole held by Moses in the desert. Did all the Jews look on the pole to be saved?

See the problem with your position is that all men are not saved..even though you say God wills it and Christ died for it .

So either no one is saved by the blood of Christ or God the Father ignores his own plan and refuses to accept the propitiation of His son for every one and demands that some pay for what was already purchased

 

[Ben johnson]

Yesterday I was graciously offered two hours of time by a college professor of Greek. We discussed a dozen passages, primarily Acts13:48.

His initial response on the word, "tetagmenoi", is that it COULD mean "middle-passive". However, when he read from my Greek interlinear Bible, he leaned more towards your views, that it was PASSIVE only. He said, "I don't think the writer intended 'appointed themselves'.

He said, "the word, 'TASSO', does not mean 'ordain/appoint'; it is a military term, as in, 'a general ORDERS his troops'; or even better, 'POSITIONS his troops'.

I commented on the "cause/effect" argument between "tasso" and "belief". He asked, "Is that important?" When I explained that it was the central issue separating us, he said:

"In the Greek there is a clear relationship between their being POSITIONED, and their BELIEVING. Undeniably the participle and the verb are COINCIDENT. But the Greek makes no distinction of SEQUENCE. So we can say:
'Those who were positioned for salvation, believed.'

But it would be equally valid to read:
'Those who believed, were positioned to salvation.'

There is nothing that forbids them being positioned for salvation by GOD; but there is nothing that requires that understanding, either. I don't think he meant to imply that 'they positioned themselves'; but he could have meant 'they were positioned by their belief', or 'they were positioned by the path their lives lead to it.'

In Smyth's Greek dictionary, "tasso" carries MANY understandings; even including OPPOSITION. In other words, "they were positioned to salvation, BUT they believed (anyway)." But there would need to be good reason (contextually) to consider the "oppositional understanding" --- it cannot just be asserted without a good reason."

This brought up the question of "pas", meaning "some" or "all" --- he said, "the context determines the meaning". I showed him Romans 5:18, where "pas anthropos" is used twice, first to show how many are condemned (all), then to show to how many came justification. He said, "There would have to be a reason to understand 'pas' as either SOME, or ALL; and I don't see a difference between the two here."

I showed him Acts13:46, where Paul says: "You Jews JUDGE YOURSELVES unworthy of eternal life". In this instance, their "JUDGING THEMSELVES" is undeniably the action DONE TO THEMSELVES. [color=#f7005]The context is that the JEWS judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, so the Apostles were TURNING TO THE GENTILES; and the Gentiles, ON HEARING this, began rejoicing and glorifying the word of God."[/color]

The professor said, You're right, the context does shift credibility to your understanding; if the Jews JUDGED THEMSELVES UNWORTHY of eternal life, they undeniably are not being judged so by God, and then the Gentiles are receiving God.

I took him to Romans 13:1, where "tasso" reflects the feminine gender of "souls"; he said: "It may be indeterminate in Acts13:48 who did the ordaining or positioning, but here it is clear; God, taking the genitive case, is the orchestrator." (Clearly it says, "by God".) Similarly in 1Cor16:

I asked him about Rom9:22. He said: In the Acts passage, they were PEOPLE; in this verse they are VESSELS, inanimate objects. I don't think the vessels prepared themselves for destruction, because vessels cannot do anything, they aren't people. But here too there is nothing that indicates WHAT prepared them for destruction; it could have been they were prepared by their destructive lives.

I asked him about Hebrews10:29, specifically "regarded unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified" --- one or two of you were asserting that it REALLY meant, "He trampled Jesus, scorned the blood by which JESUS had been sanctified, and insulted the Spirit". He disagreed with this; "Jesus is mentioned just before, but in a subordinate manner; and cannot be resurrected for the subject of the sanctification. It reads to me as the one who trampled Jesus, is the one who was sanctified once."

I asked him about Eph2:8; he affirmed that "faith" and "that" differed in gender (female and neutral); I told him that the NASV translation footnoted "that" with "that salvation" (I considered there to be FIVE modifiers, of which "dia pistis by faith" was only a prepositional phrase); he agreed. I told him how the Predestinationist takes "that" to be "that faith". He agreed with me, and said: "I would say, "THAT FACT".

I think what he told me was identical to what Robertson wrote; the Acts13:48 passage does not indicate sequence, or WHO (what) positioned them to salvation; but Robertson denied that it was their "positioning by God that caused their belief" --- though it appears I was wrong about the "middle-passive", the contextual meaning IS that they were positioned not by God, but by either their lives, their hearts, their choices, etcetera. If the Jews "JUDGED THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF ETERNAL LIFE", then it is no stretch to assign the Gentiles' acceptance, TO THEIR OWN CHOICE.

I discussed John6 briefly, about the ONE GROUP who are "to be lifted up"; and there are several descriptions: "those who believe", "those whom God gives to Jesus", "those God draws", "those in communion"; he agreed that they could be PARALLEL, and not expressing sequence (I have been saying that they are not given to Jesus BEFORE they believe...)

I asked him one last question: "May I credit you by name in the forums?" He unfortunately declined; he was afraid that he would be "pestered" by many people calling and wanting to talk. He said, "You don't need an authority to prove anything; the Greek speaks for itself. Anyone with a grasp of basic Greek will agree with what I have said."

 

[Ben johnson]

Now I wish to reiterate a foundational point. I believe that I correctly understand the Calvinistic position, "regeneration leads to belief; the unregenerated heart cannot believe. This in accord with the idea of "total depravity", that mankind is too depraved to ever seek God.

This generates a "Once Saved Always Saved" belief, because a heart regenerated by God, which gives rise invariably to saving-faith (exact quote from one of you) cannot become unregenerated (another exact quote from one of you).

Here is the contradiction:
"When they hear, they receive the word with joy; yet they have no firm root who believe for a while, but in time of temptation fall away." Luke8:13

They RECEIVED THE WORD WITH JOY, and BELIEVED. According to "Total Depravity", they MUST have been regenerated. But in time of temptation (affliction - persecution, Mk4:17), they fall away. This prevents "elective-regeneration" --- for if they HAD been "elected-regenerated", they would not have fallen away. Yet they MUST have been regenerated (according to Total Depravity), else they could NEVER have believed.

There is no way to assert, "Oh they only had a FALSE belief". Clearly, what differentiated the ROCKY ground from the GOOD ground, is that the GOOD "received with honest and good heart, and HELD FAST with PERSEVERANCE. 100% their own choice; 0% predestined by God...

If one can only believe BECAUSE of regenerateion, then how did they believe in Luke8:13?

 

[rnmomof7]

It is idolatry for anyones chief love to be placed upon anyone but God. In like manner it would be idolatry for God if He should place His greatest love on anyone but Himself. For us that would be vain but for God it is glorious because is the only being that is perfect. And because He places His chief love upon Himself He does whatever pleases Him most - "Our God is in the heavens and does whatever He pleases" One of things that has pleased Him is election Eph 1:5 we are predestined to adoption according to His good pleasure. Read John Piper The Pleasures of God for a fuller understanding.

on limited atonement if you say that Christ has died for the sins of all men then why do they go to hell -- you would say that they do not believe and make the atonement their own. Well if unbelief is a sin, which it is, then Christ died for that sin as well and therefore all should go to heaven.

I just shared some blessings with you..God bless

 

[rnmomof7]

There is nothing that forbids them being positioned for salvation by GOD; but there is nothing that requires that understanding, either. I don't think he meant to imply that 'they positioned themselves'; but he could have meant 'they were positioned by their belief', or 'they were positioned by the path their lives lead to it.'

The meaning based on YOUR professor indicates they did not position themselves Ben..if we use the analogy of the commander positioning his troops , they did not read the maps and decide to place themselves..

The mere comment that there is nothing to "prevent" your reading means it is not a positive reading ..but a fall back reading .

Our commander and Chief , that positions His troops is the Father

It is a clear reading Ben..

 

[augustine32]

Now I wish to reiterate a foundational point. I believe that I correctly understand the Calvinistic position, "regeneration leads to belief; the unregenerated heart cannot believe. This in accord with the idea of "total depravity", that mankind is too depraved to ever seek God.

This generates a "Once Saved Always Saved" belief, because a heart regenerated by God, which gives rise invariably to saving-faith (exact quote from one of you) cannot become unregenerated (another exact quote from one of you).

Here is the contradiction:
"When they hear, they receive the word with joy; yet they have no firm root who believe for a while, but in time of temptation fall away." Luke8:13

They RECEIVED THE WORD WITH JOY, and BELIEVED. According to "Total Depravity", they MUST have been regenerated. But in time of temptation (affliction - persecution, Mk4:17), they fall away. This prevents "elective-regeneration" --- for if they HAD been "elected-regenerated", they would not have fallen away. Yet they MUST have been regenerated (according to Total Depravity), else they could NEVER have believed.

There is no way to assert, "Oh they only had a FALSE belief". Clearly, what differentiated the ROCKY ground from the GOOD ground, is that the GOOD "received with honest and good heart, and HELD FAST with PERSEVERANCE. 100% their own choice; 0% predestined by God...

If one can only believe BECAUSE of regenerateion, then how did they believe in Luke8:13?

Rom 10 says that one must believe with their heart to be saved. It is possible to have a head knowledge of God, which the Jews did, and not believe with their heart and be saved. I can believe that Christ came to save sinners and rejoice in that and not be saved. The good ground received with an honest and good heart and were saved. It says nothing about the heart of the rocky ground. Oh, and notice that the good soil was GOOD i.e. regenerate before it received the word and believed

 

[Boanerge]

How is someone "Regenerated" or Born again without hearing first?

This is how i see it. Simple and quick. Light weight, not drowning in doctrinal burden.

ALL HAVE BEEN CALLED, BUT ONLY FEW FOLLOW.

And another one i have heard over the years.

GOD DOES NOT CALL THE QUALIFIED.
HE QUALIFIES THE CALLED.

In other words, if we were "saints" before we are called to be christians, then God is Giving a FREE GIFT to those He loves, this then contradicts what Jesus says "Even SINNERS GIVE TO THOSE THEY LOVE."

God on the other Hand came to save SINNERS and there is no other way around it. No special ELECTION no FAVORITISM. nada. Just a simple, sound gospel

"Here, take my hand, let me get you out of this mess."

period.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Augustine. You assert "they didn't have a REAL BELIEF". But "Total depravity" says "They couldn't believe at ALL, without regeneration". This by taking the Rom3 passage as DICTATE, that "none seek God, all have turned aside, none that does good". This is what total depravity MEANS. Totally depraved; they cannot believe in any measure.

The "received with joy and believed for a while", is very different than those who were CLEARLY pretending in John8:41-42, claiming that "God was their father"; Jesus replied, "God isn't REALLY your father, if He WAS, then you would follow ME." Identically in Jn5:46, "If you REALLY believed Moses, then you would believe ME."

The four "devices" used to try to accomodate "troublesome" (to OSAS) passages, are:
1. They didn't REALLY believe, weren't REALLY saved in the FIRST place.
2. They didn't really FALL from salvation; maybe only lost heavenly rewards but not Heaven itself.
3. Empty hyperbole, it's merely a fanciful STORY to "keep us in line" but can't really happen...
4. There is a way we can IGNORE entire letters of the New Testament. Maybe James and Peter were writing to a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION; or to the JEWS but not to US...

I'm not aware of a 5th; those in Heb6;4-6 were "metochos-partners" with the Holy Spirit, but fell away; those in Gal5 were "begun-in-Spirit/running-well" but now "severed/fallen"; those in 2Pet2:20-22 were "escaped through true saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jeus", but now "epistrepho-ek-turned-away-from" the holy commandment. Those in 2Pet1 were "purified from former sins" but now "forgotten that purification, blind and short-sighted". Too much of Scripture says "they WERE saved, now they are NOT."

There is no reason to say, "received with JOY and BELIEVED" was not saved in Luke8:13; the DIFFERENCE between the "rocky" and the "good", is not written with ANY indication of something GOD did; but rather, "the GOOD is they who receive with good & honest heart, and HOLD FAST and PERSEVERE." I don't see, "they only PRETENDED to believe"...

 

[Ben johnson]

The mere comment that there is nothing to "prevent" your reading means it is not a positive reading ..but a fall back reading .

Our commander and Chief , that positions His troops is the Father

It is a clear reading Ben..

You are correct, Acts13:48 does not prove my position. The only thing the Greek professor said, is that it didn't DENY it, either.

And if the rest of the text harmonizes, then all fits together into an eloquent, cognizant whole.

The proof is in the Scripture as a whole; see my post just above for a few examples of "those who WERE saved, but now are NOT."

How's the newlyweds, btw???

 

[augustine32]

Hi, Augustine. You assert "they didn't have a REAL BELIEF". But "Total depravity" says "They couldn't believe at ALL, without regeneration". This by taking the Rom3 passage as DICTATE, that "none seek God, all have turned aside, none that does good". This is what total depravity MEANS. Totally depraved; they cannot believe in any measure.

The "received with joy and believed for a while", is very different than those who were CLEARLY pretending in John8:41-42, claiming that "God was their father"; Jesus replied, "God isn't REALLY your father, if He WAS, then you would follow ME." Identically in Jn5:46, "If you REALLY believed Moses, then you would believe ME."

The four "devices" used to try to accomodate "troublesome" (to OSAS) passages, are:
1. They didn't REALLY believe, weren't REALLY saved in the FIRST place.
2. They didn't really FALL from salvation; maybe only lost heavenly rewards but not Heaven itself.
3. Empty hyperbole, it's merely a fanciful STORY to "keep us in line" but can't really happen...
4. There is a way we can IGNORE entire letters of the New Testament. Maybe James and Peter were writing to a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION; or to the JEWS but not to US...

I'm not aware of a 5th; those in Heb6;4-6 were "metochos-partners" with the Holy Spirit, but fell away; those in Gal5 were "begun-in-Spirit/running-well" but now "severed/fallen"; those in 2Pet2:20-22 were "escaped through true saved-knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jeus", but now "epistrepho-ek-turned-away-from" the holy commandment. Those in 2Pet1 were "purified from former sins" but now "forgotten that purification, blind and short-sighted". Too much of Scripture says "they WERE saved, now they are NOT."

There is no reason to say, "received with JOY and BELIEVED" was not saved in Luke8:13; the DIFFERENCE between the "rocky" and the "good", is not written with ANY indication of something GOD did; but rather, "the GOOD is they who receive with good & honest heart, and HOLD FAST and PERSEVERE." I don't see, "they only PRETENDED to believe"...

The difference is in the heart. Being totally depraved our intellects can still hold something to be true, in other words, believe, without it affecting our hearts. The good soil had good hearts whereas the rocky soil did not. And the only reason the good soil was good was because the same farmer who spread the seed tilled the earth of what otherwise would be no different from a hard path, rocky or thorny ground. "Who made you oh man to differ" So yes God did do a work before the seed was sown. The grounds that received the word were different and God only worked on one of them before the seeds were sown. No it does not say that but it is the obvious inference of the farmer analogy and follows with Matt. 13:11 - to you it has been granted, to them it has not.

Also I would base that interpretation on the fact that if a person is saved then God's love is upon them and if so then I ask you, what can separate them from that love?

 

[rnmomof7]

How is someone "Regenerated" or Born again without hearing first?

The question might be asked how can one hear if they are not regenerated?

Jesus did not think it was possible




Mat 13:8**
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

**
*
Mat 13:9**
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

**
*
Mat 13:10**
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

**
*
Mat 13:11**
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

**
*
Mat 13:12**
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

**
*
Mat 13:13**
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

**
*
Mat 13:14**
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

**
*
Mat 13:15**
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

**
*
Mat 13:16**
But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

As Jesus taught

Unless a man be born again he can not see the Kingdom of God

This is how i see it. Simple and quick. Light weight, not drowning in doctrinal burden.

ALL HAVE BEEN CALLED, BUT ONLY FEW FOLLOW.

Many have been called ..BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Chosen by Whom?

And another one i have heard over the years.

GOD DOES NOT CALL THE QUALIFIED.
HE QUALIFIES THE CALLED.

Yes...He decides to call those He chooses and then conforms them to His image.

Because we can in no way qualify ourself

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


Oppps there is that word again ...chose :>)

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

In other words, if we were "saints" before we are called to be christians, then God is Giving a FREE GIFT to those He loves, this then contradicts what Jesus says "Even SINNERS GIVE TO THOSE THEY LOVE."

The word saint means set aside for the use of God. Indeed the elect have ben set aside for the service of God.
But the elect is born unregenerate as are all men . They require the grace of God to repent and believe.

We were all born enemies of God , every one of us..Jesus died to save us

God on the other Hand came to save SINNERS and there is no other way around it. No special ELECTION no FAVORITISM. nada. Just a simple, sound gospel

Of course we are all still born spiritually carrying the likeness of Cain in sin

Would you deny God what you demand for yourself (free will)

Does not God have the right to choose (that word again) whom He will save?

The Gospel teaches He does.

A side note . The idea of a right to get saved, or the idea that man is being short changed if salvation is of God and not man is doing exactly what satan did ..setting oneself above God .

Mercy is getting what you do not deserve. There is no man that "deserves "salvation

"Here, take my hand, let me get you out of this mess."

period.

That is exactly what Jesus says but see He initiates the offer.
He acts first

 

[augustine32]

Great response rnmomof7! Slight clarification as to definitions though:

Mercy - not getting what we deserve
Grace - getting what we ill-deserve

not to contradict you but just something I've been taught

and Christ not only takes hold of our hand at the beginning, but "though he(the Christian) fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the LORD upholds him with His hand." Ps. 37:24

Blessings!

 

[Chappie]

The first important thing top realize is that the word world (Kosmos )

Does not not necessarily mean the entire world.

To the Jews the "world" meant non Jews. The Jews had no respect for the gentiles, they felt thy had an exclusive relationship with the God of creation .
Over and over it was impressed on them (much to their chagrin) that God was the God of not only the Jews but the gentiles also.
This was a hard saying to them because of their pride.

Still, must it of necessity be construded to mean all the elect. You need to close the can on one end or the other... I agree that the can is open. Truth is it is not limited to any particular group within the context that it is spoken.. Reformed theologys conclusion is still based on what is not spoken... Hard to impossible to prove a negative...

Kosmos

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19[/color]

So as you see even the greek scholars deny that the greek word Kosmos means the ENTIRE world.

Still, no scholars are willing to limit it to only the elect. Only reformers lay claim to that sacred bit of hidden knowledge...

The atonement is limited in your own words to "whosoever" believes , so it is not universal. We ask who will believe? Those to whom God grants repentance and Belief..a limited atonement.

Perhaps you have again simply misunderstood me. I have never stated, nor do I believe that the atonment is limited only to those that believe. It simply clears the way for salvation by grace through faith.

Shall we put it this way? A very wealthy man pays for all the food in the world for 30 days. During that 30 days all that any man has to do in order to eat is believe that the rich man did what he said, and show up to get the food. If he believes and shows up, he gets to eat. If he disbelieves and does not show up, the fact that the food is there for him avails him nothing. His food is there and paid for, but because of disbelief, he still starves to death..

We agree that all men have the opportunity to be saved. God restrains no one from coming to Him. He will save whoever comes.

But the reprobates will never choose to come. We choose according to our preferences . They prefer to be Lord of their own life. To select a god of their own choosing or just to be their own god.

And God turns reprobates over to their own devices. Problem is you were a reprobate also. But now you refer to them as "Them Reprobates". He turns them over, but he did not turn you over.

Salvation is of God He is the author and finisher of our salvation.

That criteria is just as easily met by saying that when we believe, God saves. You do not need the extreamism of election to satisfy that part of scripture. That's what reform theology consists of, a system of constant unending overkill..

That scripture refers back to the serpent on the pole held by Moses in the desert. Did all the Jews look on the pole to be saved?

Was the serpent on the pole drawing all men unto himself. You have to know where the analogy begins and ends..

See the problem with your position is that all men are not saved..even though you say God wills it and Christ died for it.

I have said on occasion that it is not God's proactive will that any man perish. God would rather that all men come to a saving knowledge of his grace. All men are not saved because all men do not accept God's provisions for salvation. It is not because God would rather see them burn rather that invite them into his kingdom.. GOD IS GOOD, ALL THE TIME. HIS GOODNESS IS NOT THE SOLE POSSESION OF THE ELECT. The Jews made that same claim, here we are 2,000 years later, still making that same mistake. And in the name of Jesus no doubt...

[/quote]So either no one is saved by the blood of Christ or God the Father ignores his own plan and refuses to accept the propitiation of His son for every one and demands that some pay for what was already purchased[/QUOTE]The propitiation pays our sin debt, we are still saved by grace. Debt paid, God is still under no obligation to save us. The blood of Christ accomplished precisely what it was intended to accomplish. By the blood of one man, the sin debt of the whole world was paid... You try to sell it short because it did not do what it was never intended to do... It's God's plan, not yours...

 

[augustine32]

Yes Christ's blood did accomplish all that it was intended to do. That is to make sure that every sin he died for is covered. If it is as you say and Christ died for all sins but we have to make appropriation ourself then Christ bore pain that was unnecessary and those in hell are not suffering for all their sins but only for unbelief. So there you have Christ not dying for the sin of unbelief or sinners suffering for sins that have already been suffered for. We do not believe that Christ's death simply produced a sliding scale of payment that goes up or down when a person accepts or rejects Christ. We believe that each sin He died for is atoned for and he did not have a huge faceless mass before Him on the cross some of whom would go to hell, but he had us on his mind as he suffered for our sins. As Isaiah says He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied. All for whom Christ died will be saved and their sins washed away.

 

[augustine32]

The problem with the wealthy man analogy is that the person that starved also had to pay for the already paid food when he died. Does that make sense? A better analogy would be that a wealthy man decides he will buy food for those who cannot afford it. It is his money so he has the right to do with it as he choses. He buys food for certain people and not for others - does he not have that right, the money is his. So with God. We might not understand why he has done it and if so why us, but it remains that his ways are nor our ways and they are past finding out. Your way would not give rise to Paul's hymn of Romans 11:33-36. God has prepared a way of salvation but no one is assured that they will make it to heaven because they first must make the choice to accept Christ on their own and persevere on their own to heaven? I know I couldn't do that It sounds to me like survival of the fittest. But Paul also puts forward I Cor. 1:26-31. Believe this and let us all glory in the LORD!!!

 

[Chappie]

Yes Christ's blood did accomplish all that it was intended to do. That is to make sure that every sin he died for is covered. If it is as you say and Christ died for all sins but we have to make appropriation ourself then Christ bore pain that was unnecessary and those in hell are not suffering for all their sins but only for unbelief.

Unnecessary according to whom? Was it your plan or God's? Seems to me that he has more than earned the right to determine what is and is not necessary. Does he really need our help?

So there you have Christ not dying for the sin of unbelief or sinners suffering for sins that have already been suffered for. We do not believe that Christ's death simply produced a sliding scale of payment that goes up or down when a person accepts or rejects Christ.

Doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what the scriptures say: And it says nothing about any limited atonement. Remember, God's plan does not have to meet with your approval.

We believe that each sin He died for is atoned for and he did not have a huge faceless mass before Him on the cross some of whom would go to hell, but he had us on his mind as he suffered for our sins. As Isaiah says He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied. All for whom Christ died will be saved and their sins washed away.

The protestants believe this, the Catholics believe that, the JW's believe something different, and scientilogists, well they believe what they believe. I am not so much concerned with what you believe as i am concerned with what you do to scripture in order to believe as you do....

 

[Chappie]

The problem with the wealthy man analogy is that the person that starved also had to pay for the already paid food when he died.

Why don't we allow God to be the judge of that? Anyway, had he ate the bread, he would never have died...

Does that make sense? A better analogy would be that a wealthy man decides he will buy food for those who cannot afford it.

Up stepts total depravity. Are you suggesting that some could afford it and some could not.

It is his money so he has the right to do with it as he choses. He buys food for certain people and not for others - does he not have that right, the money is his. So with God.

In that case, by his own standards, his love does not meet the criteria for agape. It is not unconditional love, and his claim to agape love is a false one. God can do anything that he chooses, still by his own standards; good remains good, and evil remains evil. You are so concerned with God's sovereignty that you make him a tyrant.

We might not understand why he has done it and if so why us, but it remains that his ways are nor our ways and they are past finding out.

In that case, the bible is unfathomable, and you do not have a clue. Still you want to teach me.. Yet the scriptures were given to us for our understanding. Is how dumb we are the only measure of how great he is that you have to measure with. Even if we could find him out, is greatness is no less.

Your way would not give rise to Paul's hymn of Romans 11:33-36. God has prepared a way of salvation but no one is assured that they will make it to heaven because they first must make the choice to accept Christ on their own and persevere on their own to heaven?

No one has even remotely suggested that we do it on our own. That is your strawman. God always makes the first move, then he assists us along the way by leading us along the paths of righteousness, and then he makes the last move. Still he will not rape us of our authonomy as beings created in his image. Can i say that without offending you, I was created in God's image. Is that a lie, is God any less glorious because it is true....

I know I couldn't do that It sounds to me like survival of the fittest. But Paul also puts forward I Cor. 1:26-31. Believe this and let us all glory in the LORD!!![/QUOTE][

 

[Ben johnson]

The good soil had good hearts whereas the rocky soil did not.

There is nothing to indicate that they did not have good hearts. They received it with joy (I submit IDENTICALLY as did the good soil), they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE; The "no firm root" is said BECAUSE they fall away in time of temptation/persecution/affliction. The difference between the grounds is that the GOOD, holds fast and PERSEVERES; even the THORNY, are they who allowed worries and riches and pleasures to choke their fruit; nowhere in this passage is any indication of GOD decreeing; it's all their RESPONSE. Asserting "GOD made them "thorny/rocky/good', is to write in what the author DID NOT.

Also I would base that interpretation on the fact that if a person is saved then God's love is upon them and if so then I ask you, what can separate them from that love?

Ask Hebrew's writer: "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ....lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." 3:12-14

Ask James: "each is tempted when he is enticed and carried away by his own lust; then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death. DO NOT BE DECEIVED, beloved brethren." 1:14-16

Ask Jude: "Building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life." 21

While Rom8:39 says "I am convinced that ...nothing can separate you from the love of God", it is very clear that we can ABIDE in Him, or NOT; and, I daresay, He does have some love for even those who perish; if He desires everyone to be saved (1Tim2:4), then I really believe God cries over each soul that perishes...

 

[Ben johnson]

Mat 13:11**
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

You're trying to make this into a "depravity thing", aren't you? How was it GIVEN to them? They couldn't hear because they were DEPRAVED? The DISCIPLES didn't understand EITHER, did they? Jesus had to EXPLAIN it to them, didn't He? And if He had explained it to the OTHERS, do you think they would not have UNDERSTOOD???

Mat 13:13**
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

What if this is simply parallel to John10:26: "You do not believe (that I am the Messiah), because you are not of My sheep (because you have not believed in Me)"?

Matt13:15 says "THEY have closed THEIR eyes" --- not, "GOD has closed their eyes". What must be proven (for "predestined-election") is that the IMPETUS is solely from GOD; and it still reads "good ground by how they HELD FAST and PERSEVERED and BORE GOOD FRUIT."

Many have been called ..BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Chosen by Whom?

This verse stands solidly against "PE"; for there is no difference exhibitted in the parable, between the calling of the CHOSEN, and the calling of the UNCHOSEN; the CHOSEN are none but they who CAME, and put on righteousness. There are none in the parable who were NOT invited. It reads that ALL are sincerely invited, and the "chosen" reflects how they RECEIVED the invitation... (Again, to support "Predestined-Election", you must prove that GOD does the choosing WITHOUT their participation; and no such perspective exists in this parable; contrarily, it exhibits the OPPOSITE idea...)

Yes...He decides to call those He chooses and then conforms them to His image.

Can you find these words together in the Scripture? Nope...

Because we can in no way qualify ourself

You know, you're RIGHT; receiving Him of volition does not "qualify ourselves"; He still qualifies us, through OUR faith...

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Rom9:18, Ex10:1), OR Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart (Ex9:34). It's just a matter of perspective...

Rom9:18 does not deny that "God has mercy on those who LOVE Him, and FOLLOW Him"...

Have you ever considered CONNECTING Romans 8:28 with Jn3:19-21? Let's read them together, and see if you don't agree about the connection:
"God causes all things to work together for good to those who LOVE GOD, to those who are called according to His purpose."
"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than (loving) the light; for their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed; but he who practices truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be shown as having been wrought in God."

What Predestinationists have failed to prove, is that the "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, to be first among many" (Rm8:29), happens BEFORE they "love God". I submit that "predestination" is founded on "foreknew", which means they JOIN the predestination THROUGH love. Identically as in Eph1:4-13, "He chose us IN HIM before the beginning of time", does not remove our "having believed" (Eph1:13); so JESUS is the "predestined-before-time", and our "bleieved" means we JOIN His predestined plan. Nowhere does Scripture say "God makes the choice of our eternity"...

But the elect is born unregenerate as are all men . They require the grace of God to repent and believe.

And yet the "ROCKY ground" are they who RECEIVE the word with JOY, and BELIEVE. Do you say "they FAKED it"? There is nothing here to hint their belief was not REAL. What MADE them rocky, instead of good soil, is that they did not HOLD FAST and PERSEVERE...

How could they have BELIEVED, at ALL, if they were NEVER ELECTED? You said yourself --- "They require the grace of God TO believe". How do you justify their belief in terms of PREDESTINATION?

 

[Ben johnson]

So as you see even the greek scholars deny that the greek word Kosmos means the ENTIRE world

Then why do you reject that 1Jn2:2 says, "He is the appeasement not only for OUR sins but also for those of the HOLOS KOSMOS (whole world)"?*

Salvation is of God He is the author and finisher of our salvation

Heb12:2 says "God is the ARCHEGOS (leader, prince) and TELEIOTES (perfector, by his own example) of faith..."

Where do you find in Scripture, that "God DECREED anyone's salvic-faith"?

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* In case anyone will accuse me of "universal salvation", 1Jn2:2 is parallel to Rom5:17-18, where they are JUSTIFIED and He is the PROPITIATION only if they RECEIVE the gift of grace (receive salvation by receiving Jesus)...