predestination

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing
Mark 4:9-12 hearing comes from God

 

[frumanchu]

Question: in "Predestined-Election" theology, does "total depravity" preclude one's ability to believe in Jesus? IOW, the heart must be regenerated before one can believe, and that divinely-regenerated heart is what prevents the believer from falling? Do I understand it right?

Ben, you've claimed Robertson as supporting your position when he does nothing of the sort. Not only must you concede that men do NOT "appoint" themselves by their faith (which Robertson has boldly proclaimed as needing more than "legerdemain"), but that rather their belief is evidence of such appointment/ordination which PRECEDED it.

What say you? Do you concede that:

a) Robertson does NOT support the position that men "appoint/ordain themselves" to eternal life BY their belief

b) Grammatically and contextually, Acts 13:48 DOES NOT indicate (as Robertson affirms) that appointment to eternal life was the result of belief or that it followed belief, but rather that appointment to eternal life PRECEDED belief.

c) Your attempt to argue that the middle-passive of tassw should be translated as a direct middle is faulty because without exception the periphrastic perfect and periphrastic pluperfect, middle-passive form (whether past, present, or future) is ALWAYS translated as a passive. It is NEVER translated as a direct middle in the New Testament.

d) Consequently, ordination/appointment unto eternal life PRECEDES salvific faith.



If you do not concede these points, please explain why not. If you do concede, then let us hear what you would claim is the basis of such an appointment/ordination seeing as belief is clearly not the cause but the outgrowth of such appointment/ordination.

 

[Ben johnson]

If you do not concede these points, please explain why not. If you do concede, then let us hear what you would claim is the basis of such an appointment/ordination seeing as belief is clearly not the cause but the outgrowth of such appointment/ordination.

Yesterday I contacted a college professor, his profession includes teaching Greek. From beginning, to advanced. Today he graciously invited me to the campus (outside of his office hours!), and gave me two hours of his time. As nice a gentleman as you could ever hope to meet. We discussed Acts 13:48 at length, and several other passages of interest (those we have been discussing here the last several weeks). I have GOBS to say; but to do so now I really think would prevent receiving an answer to my question; and it's important to me that I understand correctly this aspect of "Calvinism". If several of you wouild be so kind as to answer, I would be honored.

[color=#f7005]Question: in "Predestined-Election" theology, does "total depravity" preclude one's ability to believe in Jesus? IOW, the heart must be regenerated before one can believe (and that belief flows from the regenerated heart), and that divinely-regenerated-heart is what prevents the believer from falling? Do I understand it right?[/color]

 

[frumanchu]

Yesterday I contacted a college professor, his profession includes teaching Greek. From beginning, to advanced. Today he graciously invited me to the campus (outside of his office hours!), and gave me two hours of his time. As nice a gentleman as you could ever hope to meet. We discussed Acts 13:48 at length, and several other passages of interest (those we have been discussing here the last several weeks). I have GOBS to say; but to do so now I really think would prevent receiving an answer to my question; and it's important to me that I understand correctly this aspect of "Calvinism". If several of you wouild be so kind as to answer, I would be honored.

[color=#f7005]Question: in "Predestined-Election" theology, does "total depravity" preclude one's ability to believe in Jesus? IOW, the heart must be regenerated before one can believe (and that belief flows from the regenerated heart), and that divinely-regenerated-heart is what prevents the believer from falling? Do I understand it right?[/color]

If it's all the same to you, Ben, I'd like to hear your explanation. I believe you've already heard our answer to your question several times over in the course of these discussions. Once you give a sufficient answer/explanation regarding Acts 13:48, I will be more than happy to answer your question.

I'm understandably curious to know what this Greek professor has to say.

 

[Chappie]

Calvinists do not base their doctrine but on the entire word of God.Predestination and election and a limited atonement are supported by Gods interaction with men from Adam.

We do not run and hide from John 3:16 we claim it as our own.

You may want to start an investigation of the word PAS (which translates all or whosoever)
I will ask you this question .

If Jesus died for all men , why are not all men saved?

If He paid the debt for all mankind, how can God demand a double payment from any man for the sins .

All men are not saved by the cross because the cross does not save. We are saved by grace. The cross removed the stumbling block for grace. Remember, we are saved by grace.....Man owed a debt that he could not pay, that debt was paid for all men by Christ. Now it became possible for all men to be saved.

Concerning "PAS", I have done even as you suggest. I am satisfied with the way the passage is translated. On what authourity do you change it?
May God bless...

 

[Chappie]

Fortunately, we do not and need not establish our doctrine based on one passage of Scripture.

Since you mentioned John 3:16 not once but twice, please tell me what it is you feel in that verse is incompatible with the Reformed doctrines of grace. Same with John 12:32 and Romans 10:9-13. Feel free to Private Message me if you wish on these points as they aren't quite on topic with what is currently being discussed.

For God so loved the world, the world meaning all men; that he gave his only begotten Son (He died for all men) that "whosoever believeth", (All men have the opportunity to be saved) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men. John 12:32.. All means "all". Do not manipulate the passage to say all the elect. Treat it with the same respect that I treated your passage in Acts.

 

[Chappie]

He who stands for nothing, will fall for anything....

How original.....

 

[nobdysfool]

He who stands for nothing, will fall for anything....

How original.....

Glad you like it....

 

[augustine32]

For God so loved the world, the world meaning all men; that he gave his only begotten Son (He died for all men) that "whosoever believeth", (All men have the opportunity to be saved) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men. John 12:32.. All means "all". Do not manipulate the passage to say all the elect. Treat it with the same respect that I treated your passage in Acts.

I think you would agree that not all men are saved so you would have to admit that this drawing does not save and would probably say that it is but the offer of salvation to all men - right? But if you look at John 6:44 Christ says no one can come unless the Father draws him - to be consistent with your argument you would have to say that all are drawn now that Christ has been lifted up and so all can come. Vs. 45 says that everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Christ -no exceptions! Everyone who hears true biblical preaching is not saved so this hearing and learning from the Father is not an external hearing but an inward one. If you have not learned from the Father then you cannot come to Christ. All does mean "all" but all what? all people, all elect? The word people is not there so what the "all" means must be derived from scripture. All people are not taught of God or drawn so they do not come therefore it must mean the elect.

As to John 3:16 have you thought of "God so loved the world" to be a qualitative rather than quantitative measurement. I believe it means that this world is vile and filthy and though it and everyone who has ever lived deserves to be destroyed for our sin against God, yet He has loved us. God has enough love to love a thousands worlds so the wonder is not found in the fact that he loves every single person but that He could love such a sinner as I. The quantitative part of the verse is the whoever believes. But who is able to believe unless they are taught by God and drawn by Him to Christ? And yes I highly respect what you claim as "your" verses but I would ask you to see them in the light of all scripture. You claim above that all refers to men but the Bible does not put the men in there and you offered no explanation as to why we should believe it means men when John 6 shows that all are not drawn because all are not taught of God. If you claim that we manipulate the verse then you are guilty of the same thing.

 

[Chappie]

[/color][/size][/b][/i]

Glad you like it....

It's ok, still keep your day job. You still need in this one....

 

[rnmomof7]

All men are not saved by the cross because the cross does not save. We are saved by grace. The cross removed the stumbling block for grace. Remember, we are saved by grace.....Man owed a debt that he could not pay, that debt was paid for all men by Christ. Now it became possible for all men to be saved.

Concerning "PAS", I have done even as you suggest. I am satisfied with the way the passage is translated. On what authourity do you change it?
May God bless...

Without the cross no man could be saved. Indeed we are saved by grace (unmerited favor of God) through faith .

Eph 2:8**
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

Notice that the vehicle that delivers the grace is Faith. Not self generated faith , but God given Faith .

He gives us that faith through the reading of His word.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

A dead man can not hear the word in a saving way. He must be regenerated to desire God and to have ears to hear it.

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Eph 2:1**
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins.

God regenerates us, we hear the word with understanding , we repent and believe (Faith)

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Rom 3:24**
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Concerning "PAS", I have done even as you suggest. I am satisfied with the way the passage is translated. On what authourity do you change it?
May God bless...

Could I ask where you studied the word PAS ?

I am willing to read the text as you do and still say that it does not prove a universal application of the blood of Christ .

But I think first we need to look at the text

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Jhn 3:16**
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is Strong's definition

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types
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... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption

Now we know that this is the correct definition for whosoever because the atonement is not universal..but is in fact just what the scripture says..it is for WHOSOEVER believes .

We would argue that belief is a gift of God .

 

[Ben johnson]

The Greek professor asked me why sequence was important; I said, "I believe that faith causes salvation; they say that regeneration leads to faith. So in the Acts 13:48 passage, in saying "the ORDAINED, BELIEVED" --- that sequence would support their claim.

This is why I asked if I have it right; if I don't, then some of my discussion with the instructor was off.

On the previous page of this thread, much was made about sequence in Acts13:48; that the ORDAINED, preceded the BELIEVED. Which is why I asked for verification; I understand (from all of you), that REGENERATION gives rise to FAITH. And (I think it was NBF) said, "a regenerated heart cannot be unregenerated". Does everyone agree with this?

 

[frumanchu]

The Greek professor asked me why sequence was important; I said, "I believe that faith causes salvation; they say that regeneration leads to faith. So in the Acts 13:48 passage, in saying "the ORDAINED, BELIEVED" --- that sequence would support their claim.

This is why I asked if I have it right; if I don't, then some of my discussion with the instructor was off.

On the previous page of this thread, much was made about sequence in Acts13:48; that the ORDAINED, preceded the BELIEVED. Which is why I asked for verification; I understand (from all of you), that REGENERATION gives rise to FAITH. And (I think it was NBF) said, "a regenerated heart cannot be unregenerated". Does everyone agree with this?

I think the issue of "a regenerated heart cannot be regenerated" (the doctrine of perseverance) is irrelevant to the discussion. Acts 13:48 doesn't really have anything to do with the doctrine of perseverance.

For the purpose of getting to the point, I will say that you are correct in understanding from us that we believe regeneration precedes faith, which in turn leads to salvation (note the distinction between regeneration and salvation).

Good enough?

So let's hear it. What did the professor say?

 

[frumanchu]

If I be lifted up, I will draw all men. John 12:32.. All means "all". Do not manipulate the passage to say all the elect. Treat it with the same respect that I treated your passage in Acts.

Fair enough.

The Greek word translated 'draw' is used eight times in the New Testament. Three refer to 'drawing' inanimate objects like a sword (Jhn 18:10) or a fishing net(Jhn 21:6, 11) and the rest refer to people. In Acts 16:19, Paul and Silas are 'drawn' into the marketplace (obviously not by their choice). In Acts 21:30, Paul was 'drawn' out of the temple (again, not by his choice). And in James 2:6 they are 'drawn' before the judgement seats (you guessed it, not by their choice). The only other two occurrances are John 6:44 (No man can come to me except the Father draw him) and John 12:32 (And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me).

The same Greek word is used in other extant works for drawing water from a well. It would be taking gross liberty to interpret the same word in John 6:44 and 12:32 as meaning anything except the exact same thing...that 'drawing' in the New Testament sense, while it certainly may be 'resisted' is ultimately irresistable.

Note the context of John 12:32. It is not a context of salvation...it is a context of judgement. In John 6, the Father does the drawing (election). In John 12, the Son does the drawing (judgement). Not all men are elect, but all men are judged. Furthermore, it can be translated as Jesus "drawing all peoples" to Himself. Either way, the consistent meaning of the word "draw" is preserved.

As far as the word "pas" please read 1 Tim 6:10 and tell me how money is the "root of all (pas) evil" including incest, adultery, etc. More than likely, unless you check the KJV, you will find it translated as "all sorts/types of evil." The word is exactly the same as the word in John 12:32. The word "all" does not necessary mean "every individual" every time. There are numerous examples in which a verse would be rendered absurd were this the case. So to simply say "'all' means all" doesn't cover "all" the bases.

 

[augustine32]

I would agree. As I stated above faith comes from hearing and the hearing that is required for faith can only be given by God. And yes if God places His love upon a person and does a work in their heart i.e. regeneration, then who can seperate us from God's love? - no created being including ourselves.

 

[Chappie]

I think you would agree that not all men are saved so you would have to admit that this drawing does not save and would probably say that it is but the offer of salvation to all men - right?

Right!!!!!!

But if you look at John 6:44 Christ says no one can come unless the Father draws him - to be consistent with your argument you would have to say that all are drawn now that Christ has been lifted up and so all can come.

Right!!!!!

Vs. 45 says that everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Christ -no exceptions!

Nope!!!! The exceptions are listed in verse 64 & 65. Those that heard, but did not believe did not come. Neither were they given.

EEveryone who hears true biblical preaching is not saved so this hearing and learning from the Father is not an external hearing but an inward one. If you have not learned from the Father then you cannot come to Christ.

It is not through hearing and learning that one is saved, head knowledge will get you nowhere. Salvation comes through faith. (Believing unto submission) One does not come unless he believes… Verse 64 & 6...

All does mean "all" but all what? all people, all elect? The word people is not there so what the "all" means must be derived from scripture. All people are not taught of God or drawn so they do not come therefore it must mean the elect.

The word “elect” is not there either, that leaves it open to mean “all that believe just as easily wouldn‘t you say? Verse 40 speaks of everyone that seeth and believeth. The elect is nowhere to be found… You must admit that, “it can’t be this, so it must be that”, works just as well for me as it does for you. Atleast I stayed within the immediate context of the passages, where did you have to go to conjure up this elect scenario?

As to John 3:16 have you thought of "God so loved the world" to be a qualitative rather than quantitative measurement.

“Qualitative rather than quantities huh“? Shall we consider what that does to the agape love of God? God loves some a whole lot, the rest he does not love at all. And what would that love be based on. God’s good pleasure. Well that makes it conditional doesn’t it? You would rather change the unconditional, unmerited love of God into some selfish self serving concept rather than believing that he is the righteous, just and holy God proclaimed to us in scripture. Agape love is unconditional, yet you would change it to, “on condition that you are the elect. Shame on you…..

I believe it means that this world is vile and filthy and though it and everyone who has ever lived deserves to be destroyed for our sin against God, yet He has loved us. God has enough love to love a thousands worlds so the wonder is not found in the fact that he loves every single person but that He could love such a sinner as I.

He has enough love for a thousand worlds, yet he withholds it from all but a few so called elect. So much for unconditional love.. Do you even know what love is? Love is an expression that is always directed from the inside out. Seldom, if ever is it even remotely concerned with ones self, agape love that is. Yet you have God loving just to serve his own purposes. Love is always concerned with the wellbing of the objects of its affection. Agape love does not place restrictions that must be met before one is loved. While we were yet sinners, he loved us.

The quantitative part of the verse is the whoever believes.

This is nothing more than creative writing and you know it. There are men that can reasonably explain away the resurrection, am I surprised at your effort to explain away the atonement that Christ has proclaimed touches every man? NO!!!! I am just saddened by it…

But who is able to believe unless they are taught by God and drawn by Him to Christ?

But you say that God does not teach all men, but God says that one has only to look at the things that are to be taught of God. God does not reject men, men reject God.

And yes I highly respect what you claim as "your" verses but I would ask you to see them in the light of all scripture.

They are no more my scriptures than they are yours. When the light of all scripture is shone upon scripture, your concept of total depravity that renders men as dead using the concept of physical death goes out the window. Efficacious grace, limited atonement, immediately follows suit, and perseverance of the saints becomes the perseverance of God…

You claim above that all refers to men but the Bible does not put the men in there and you offered no explanation as to why we should believe it means men when John 6 shows that all are not drawn because all are not taught of God. If you claim that we manipulate the verse then you are guilty of the same thing.

You say it does not reference men, what are your so called elect? Goats…. No where in John 6 does it say that all men are not taught of God. How irresponsible of you to suggest such when in John 6 itself, we have Christ teaching men that do not believe. Read verses 64 & 65.

 

[Chappie]

Fair enough.

The Greek word translated 'draw' is used eight times in the New Testament. Three refer to 'drawing' inanimate objects like a sword (Jhn 18:10) or a fishing net(Jhn 21:6, 11) and the rest refer to people. In Acts 16:19, Paul and Silas are 'drawn' into the marketplace (obviously not by their choice). In Acts 21:30, Paul was 'drawn' out of the temple (again, not by his choice).

The drawing was not their choice, but to yield or to resist certaintly was their decision to make.

And in James 2:6 they are 'drawn' before the judgement seats (you
guessed it, not by their choice).

And you missed it again, they were drawn; still they had the option to resist. In order to overcome their resistence, their drawing had to be changed to irresistible force. At that point it is no longer drawing, they are being dragged, dragged means that they did not come or else there would not have been necessary to drag them.. Can we not praise God for good ole' common sense. It is a gift of God also..

The only other two occurrances are John 6:44 (No man can come to me except the Father draw him) and John 12:32 (And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me).

Most reformers use this passage to push efficacious grace. All men are drawn to God, many just like you just don't get it right. Every culture in the world worships a God of some kind or another. Only one God teaches men, men are the ones that get it wrong.

The same Greek word is used in other extant works for drawing water from a well. It would be taking gross liberty to interpret the same word in John 6:44 and 12:32 as meaning anything except the exact same thing...that 'drawing' in the New Testament sense, while it certainly may be 'resisted' is ultimately irresistable.

That's the kind of double talk that lets me know that there is something wrong with reformed theology. The irresistible can be resisted. If it can be resisted, then one cannot be dragged in...

Note the context of John 12:32. It is not a context of salvation...it is a context of judgement.

Was Christ crucified twice. Which time did he attone for the sins of man.

In John 6, the Father does the drawing (election). In John 12, the Son does the drawing (judgement). Not all men are elect, but all men are judged. Furthermore, it can be translated as Jesus "drawing all peoples" to Himself. Either way, the consistent meaning of the word "draw" is preserved.

In verse 38, it appears that the son came only to do the will of the Father. Shall we shine the light of that passage upon 12:32 being that you are careful to evaluate scripture only in the light of scripture.

Not all men are elect because none were ever elected, God chose the criteria, not the person. Acts, Sirs, what must i do to be saved. Was the answer, you have to be elected, or was it believe....

Draw, to provide a compelling yet resistible reason for one to move in one direction as opposed to another....

As far as the word "pas" please read 1 Tim 6:10 and tell me how money is the "root of all (pas) evil" including incest, adultery, etc. More than likely, unless you check the KJV, you will find it translated as "all sorts/types of evil." The word is exactly the same as the word in John 12:32. The word "all" does not necessary mean "every individual" every time. There are numerous examples in which a verse would be rendered absurd were this the case. So to simply say "'all' means all" doesn't cover "all" the bases.

Honey, would you go to the store and pick me up a jar of honey. Same word, contextually worlds apart.

Still when it means all the elect, should it not say so without you having to import the concept from where you imagined it....

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

[color=#f7005]Question: in "Predestined-Election" theology, does "total depravity" preclude one's ability to believe in Jesus? IOW, the heart must be regenerated before one can believe (and that belief flows from the regenerated heart), and that divinely-regenerated-heart is what prevents the believer from falling? Do I understand it right?[/color]

NO

eph 2:5 even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ

John 16:7-11 what HS does before belief

Hebrews 12:3-11 if we fall God does this

 

[rnmomof7]

Right!!!!!!

Right!!!!!

Nope!!!! The exceptions are listed in verse 64 & 65. Those that heard, but did not believe did not come. Neither were they given.

You may want to look at that in context

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Jhn 6:37**
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me ; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

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Jhn 6:38**
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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Jhn 6:39**
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

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Jhn 6:40**
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Jhn 6:44**
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


How is the man drawn? ..every man that hath learned of the Father
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Jhn 6:45**
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.



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Jhn 6:46**
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


The men that have learned of God are limited to those that have seen God , those that have seen God are OF GOD

This is an election passage

It is not through hearing and learning that one is saved, head knowledge will get you nowhere. Salvation comes through faith. (Believing unto submission) One does not come unless he believes… Verse 64 & 6...

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God "

There are many that can quote the word , but that are very lost. Many men have an intellectual understanding , but they can not hear it spiritually

In Context
Jhn 6:63**
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


Believing is a gift from God , it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us so we can hear spiritually
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*Jhn 6:64**
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Predestination

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Jhn 6:65**
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Election !!!
.

The word “elect” is not there either, that leaves it open to mean “all that believe just as easily wouldn‘t you say?

Can those that can not see or hear or desire Christ believe?

Verse 40 speaks of everyone that seeth and believeth.

The question is who can see? To whom will God give repentance and belief?

The elect is nowhere to be found… You must admit that, “it can’t be this, so it must be that”, works just as well for me as it does for you. Atleast I stayed within the immediate context of the passages, where did you have to go to conjure up this elect scenario?

John 6 is the great election chapter. It is clearly there

“Qualitative rather than quantities huh“? Shall we consider what that does to the agape love of God? God loves some a whole lot, the rest he does not love at all. And what would that love be based on. God’s good pleasure. Well that makes it conditional doesn’t it? You would rather change the unconditional, unmerited love of God into some selfish self serving concept rather than believing that he is the righteous, just and holy God proclaimed to us in scripture. Agape love is unconditional, yet you would change it to, “on condition that you are the elect. Shame on you…..

Gods love for the elect is unconditional. He chose us before we did either good or evil. He chose according to His good pleasure, not our choices or works

Rom 9:11**
(For [the children] being not yet born,neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Rom 9:13**
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

**Rom 9:14**
What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

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Rom 9:15**
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

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Rom 9:16**
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

He has enough love for a thousand worlds, yet he withholds it from all but a few so called elect. So much for unconditional love..

It is extremely unconditional as I said he elects us before we have done anything good or bad

His choice is not dependent on us at all.

God hates sin and God hates the wicked.

Do you consider it love when God sends the wicked to hell? Is it love to burn forever those who you have the power to save?
God is glorified in His righteous judgment .

Do you even know what love is? Love is an expression that is always directed from the inside out. Seldom, if ever is it even remotely concerned with ones self, agape love that is.
Yet you have God loving just to serve his own purposes.

May I ask why you believe God made man ?

Love is always concerned with the wellbing of the objects of its affection.

God is always concerned with the object of His affection. But that is not the purpose of creation

Agape love does not place restrictions that must be met before one is loved. While we were yet sinners, he loved us.

Rom 5:7**
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Of course all men are born sinners. So it is logical to say for those that those that Christ bore the wrath of God are sinners or else we would not need a savior.

Eph 2:1**
And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is written to the saved.

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Eph 2:4**
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

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Eph 2:5**
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

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Eph 2:6**
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

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Eph 2:7**
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

This is about His glory not our worth

This is nothing more than creative writing and you know it. There are men that can reasonably explain away the resurrection, am I surprised at your effort to explain away the atonement that Christ has proclaimed touches every man? NO!!!! I am just saddened by it…

No one has tried to "explain away the atonement" We just do not 'generalize' it .

May I ask a question ..If the atonement was intended for all men why is any man in hell? The price has been paid by Christ, can a just God demand a double payment? Paid once by Christ and then again charged to man?

Did Christ actually save any one on the cross?

But you say that God does not teach all men, but God says that one has only to look at the things that are to be taught of God. God does not reject men, men reject God.

The question is WHY some men reject God? It is surely in their best personal interest to repent and believe , but they do not? Why not?

The Bible tells us that we did not choose Him, He chose us.

They are no more my scriptures than they are yours. When the light of all scripture is shone upon scripture, your concept of total depravity that renders men as dead using the concept of physical death goes out the window. Efficacious grace, limited atonement, immediately follows suit, and perseverance of the saints becomes the perseverance of God…

Well Paul seems to endorse that men are born spiritually dead and totally depraved... They are unable to hear or believe.They do not even look for the God of the Bible. They want to be Lord of their own lives.
Rom 3:10**
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11**
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

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Rom 3:12**
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You say it does not reference men, what are your so called elect? Goats…. No where in John 6 does it say that all men are not taught of God

Actually it does if correctly read

Jhn 6:44**
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


It does not say that all men have learned of the Father..quite the opposite , it tells us we can know who was taught of the Father..because all of them that are come to Christ

How irresponsible of you to suggest such when in John 6 itself, we have Christ teaching men that do not believe. Read verses 64 & 65.

I do believe we handle scripture very carefully
Jesus himself said he did not want all that hear Him to understand



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Mat 13:9**
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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Mat 13:10**
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

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Mat 13:11**
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

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Mat 13:12**
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

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Mat 13:13**
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

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Mat 13:14**
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

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Mat 13:15**
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

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Mat 13:16**
But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[augustine32]

It is idolatry for anyones chief love to be placed upon anyone but God. In like manner it would be idolatry for God if He should place His greatest love on anyone but Himself. For us that would be vain but for God it is glorious because is the only being that is perfect. And because He places His chief love upon Himself He does whatever pleases Him most - "Our God is in the heavens and does whatever He pleases" One of things that has pleased Him is election Eph 1:5 we are predestined to adoption according to His good pleasure. Read John Piper The Pleasures of God for a fuller understanding.

on limited atonement if you say that Christ has died for the sins of all men then why do they go to hell -- you would say that they do not believe and make the atonement their own. Well if unbelief is a sin, which it is, then Christ died for that sin as well and therefore all should go to heaven.