Predestination

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So again you describe God as a spectator?

By the gift of the Holy spirit we are given the ability to overcome our sinful nature but it is up to us whether we choose to obey the Holy Spirit or not. Calvinism teaches that God is responsible for everyone who will burn in the lake of fire. God sent Jesus to save the world because He loved the world. Just because God foresaw our choices doesn’t mean He made the choices for us. We are responsible for our outcome. That’s why God doesn’t interfere with our free will except on a few situations where someone was chosen by God for a specific task like the prophets or Pharaoh. This is what confuses many people about Romans 8. Jonah is a prime example of a person chosen by God yet Jonah rebelled against God and got on a boat headed away from Nineveh. God intervened because He knew Jonah would obey eventually. Jonah was chosen by God yet he rebelled against God proving that he still had free will.
 
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Loren T.

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Does God Control the Human Heart?

1. The Bible teaches that God can accomplish whatever He desires. God is God. He cannot be thwarted by finite sinful man.

Psalm 115:3
. “But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.”

Psalm 135:6
. “Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.”

Isaiah 46:10-11
. “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.... Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

Job 42:2
. “You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.”

Daniel 4:35
. “He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand.”

2. Note also that God is sovereign even over man’s heart and will.

Proverbs 16:1
. “The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.”

Proverbs 16:9
. “A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.”

Proverbs 19:21
. “There are many plans in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the LORD’S counsel. that will stand.”

If God controls man’s steps, does this not prove that God is in total control? No matter what man plans, God’s will is perfectly executed.

Proverbs 21:1
. “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: He turns it wherever He wishes.”
“What could be more explicit? Out of the heart are ‘the issues of life’ (Prov. 4:23), for as man ‘thinketh in his heart, so is he’ (Prov. 23:7). If then the heart is in the hand of the Lord, and if ‘he turneth it whithersoever He will,’ then is it not clear that men, yea, governors and rulers, and so all men, are completely beneath the governmental control of the Almighty!”78

3. God controls the human heart. He can harden it or He can open it to receive the gospel.

Revelation 17:17
. “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
. “For this reason God will send them [those who perish] strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned.”

Romans 9:18-21
. “He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?”

Deuteronomy 2:30
. “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.”

Joshua 11:19-20
. “There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.”

Exodus 10:1, 20
. “Now the LORD said to Moses, ‘Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before them….’ But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go” (cf. Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 14:4; 20:27).

John 12:39-40
. “Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and understand with their heart, lest they should turn, so that I should heal them” (cf. Mk. 4:11-12).

Luke 24:4
. “And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.”

Acts 16:14
. “Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.”

Philippians 2:13
. “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Ezra 1:1, 5
. “The LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom.... Then the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all those whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the Lord” (cf. Ezra 6:22; 7:6; Ex. 12:36; Ezek. 36:27; Gen. 20:6; Isa. 6:9-10; Lk. 8:10).

The idea that God surrendered His sovereignty to man’s will is clearly unscriptural. There are so many passages in Scripture which show God working directly upon man’s heart and will to achieve His own ends that it is astonishing that anyone who believes in the authority of Scripture could deny it. Most evangelicals and fundamentalists, in their attempt to protect their unbiblical concept of free will, have dethroned God. God is helpless, waiting to see what finite, sinful mortals will do. The Most-High is stripped of His omnipotence. Pink writes: “The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated.”79

The Arminian doctrine that God sovereignly decided to create an area of created reality (man’s will) outside of His control is irrational. It is a theological impossibility. Why? Because God by nature is absolutely sovereign and all powerful. He cannotcreate a pocket of chance or pure contingency in His creation. God would have to cease to be God and deny Himself to do so. God could no more cease control of man’s spirit then He could create a being that could exist apart from His sustaining power. God has created all things. He controls all things that come to pass by His power, and according to His plan. There is not one atom or one creature beyond His power and control. The very reason that God knows every bit of history in advance is not just that He knows all things and is outside of time, but also because everything comes to pass according to His decree. Nothing can occur without His ordering. “Should anything take place contrary to the will of God, because in the opinion of the finite creature it is not ‘good,’ then Satan and man (on occasion at least) must be equal or superior to the Creator whose Word claims that He is omnipotent and wholly irresistible! On the other hand, if the determinative will of Jehovah reflects His immutable nature of Being, it can neither be obstructed nor cancelled. Therefore, whatever comes to pass in any part of creation, at any time in history, does so because the omniscient God knew it as a possibility, willed it as a reality by His omnipotence, and established it in His divine plan or purpose.”80

The Bible teaches that when Christ returns, all His saints will receive glorified bodies and spend eternity in paradise with Him. All evangelicals believe this, yet the popular modern evangelical idea that God voluntarily limits His power so He doesn’t intrude on man’s free will would render this doctrine impossible. Why? Because if God has no power to control man’s heart and will, there can never be a guarantee that someday down the road God’s saints or the angels will not sin and rebel against Him. In fact, given the length of the saints’ stay in heaven (i.e., forever and ever), another fall into sin would be inevitable. If the Arminian argues that God will change the saints’ nature at the resurrection rendering Christians unable to sin in heaven, then he has conceded the whole argument. Why? Because if God is able to change man’s heart or spirit to make it fit for the heavenly state, then He also has the power to change man’s heart and will on earth."

From the Article "Limited Atonement" by Brian Schwertley
Slapping down verses like playing cards in an attempt to win by sheer number of cards is very bad eisegesis. It's a common enough technique for Calvinists, presumably because all one has to do is keep a list of favorite proof texts somewhere to copy and paste whenever they are needed. Of course, a person can make the scripture say almost anything he wants with this method.
For example, I could take this verse in Psalms:
"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

And I could support infanticide and abortion.
Context is everything.

But I will get to answering some of the supposed proof texts, when I am on an actual computer.
 
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Loren T.

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Let's take the Proverbs verse as an example, as I see it used a lot to promote Calvinism, even heard it in sermons. On the face of it, you might think
"9In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the Lord establishes their steps."
to mean that humans plan, but God always decides what they will do and where they will go.
"3Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans."
is just another way of saying the same thing.
And when you read the entire chapter, you find a parallel verse right at the start, and all these other conditional statements. In fact, the same idea is expressed several times in different ways. So, taking the whole into context, Solomon is saying not to make your plans without God. If you want your steps to be established, plan in accordance with God's will. Proverbs are general statements that make a point, not to be taken as if they are universal. For example:

"13Kings take pleasure in honest lips;
they value the one who speaks what is right."

Well, of course, not all kings respect honesty, and not all kings value the one who speaks what is right. So, again, we have statement that is conditional on what kind of king we are talking about.


1To humans belong the plans of the heart,

but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue.

2All a person’s ways seem pure to them,

but motives are weighed by the Lord.

3Commit to the Lord whatever you do,

and he will establish your plans.

4The Lord works out everything to its proper end—

even the wicked for a day of disaster.

5The Lord detests all the proud of heart.

Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

6Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;

through the fear of the Lord evil is avoided.

7When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way,

he causes their enemies to make peace with them.

8Better a little with righteousness

than much gain with injustice.

9In their hearts humans plan their course,

but the Lord establishes their steps.

10The lips of a king speak as an oracle,

and his mouth does not betray justice.

11Honest scales and balances belong to the Lord;

all the weights in the bag are of his making.

12Kings detest wrongdoing,

for a throne is established through righteousness.

13Kings take pleasure in honest lips;

they value the one who speaks what is right.
 
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Slapping down verses like playing cards in an attempt to win by sheer number of cards is very bad eisegesis. It's a common enough technique for Calvinists, presumably because all one has to do is keep a list of favorite proof texts somewhere to copy and paste whenever they are needed. Of course, a person can make the scripture say almost anything he wants with this method.

For example, I could take this verse in Psalms:

"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

And I could support infanticide and abortion.
Context is everything.

But I will get to answering some of the supposed proof texts, when I am on an actual computer.

Wrong again, eisegesis is doing exactly what you did in your post, what so many cultistist (in the negative sense of the term) do, that is using one or two verses of Scripture and building a doctrine around it. I posted many many many Scriptures to demonstrate the true doctrine of fallen man, of the nature of man in Adam. You can try to answer them, but you will be interpreting from your preconceived philosophical eisegesis which has no foundation in Scripture. Others though may have their eyes opened to the truth of Scripture, it is why I even continue to respond.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Wrong again, eisegesis is doing exactly what you did in your post, what so many cultistist (in the negative sense of the term) do, that is using one or two verses of Scripture and building a doctrine around it. I posted many many many Scriptures to demonstrate the true doctrine of fallen man, of the nature of man in Adam. You can try to answer them, but you will be interpreting from your preconceived philosophical eisegesis which has no foundation in Scripture. Others though may have their eyes opened to the truth of Scripture, it is why I even continue to respond.

I was wondering if you got a chance to read my reply in post 247? I’m anxious to get your feedback. Predestination
 
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I was wondering if you got a chance to read my reply in post 247? I’m anxious to get your feedback. Predestination

Sorry I have not responded, it is a rather lengthy article like post, and without much Scripture, but I will pick a section or two to respond to.
 
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Loren T.

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Wrong again, eisegesis is doing exactly what you did in your post, what so many cultistist (in the negative sense of the term) do, that is using one or two verses of Scripture and building a doctrine around it. I posted many many many Scriptures to demonstrate the true doctrine of fallen man, of the nature of man in Adam. You can try to answer them, but you will be interpreting from your preconceived philosophical eisegesis which has no foundation in Scripture. Others though may have their eyes opened to the truth of Scripture, it is why I even continue to respond.
I don't think you understand my theology at all, if you think those verses are a problem for it. Man is fallen, he has a sin nature, he needs awakened by God. These are all concepts that Arminians agree with. Listing 200 verses takes us nowhere. None of us has all day and night to discuss each individual passage. The proverbs is particular seem like odd choices, because in order to support your position they would have to say that man is not capable of making plans, but that God makes his plans for him and then God scraps his own plans and makes man do what he wants.
Or take this one:
In the Lord’s hand the king’s heart is a stream of water
that he channels toward all who please him.

2 A person may think their own ways are right,
but the Lord weighs the heart.
All you have to do is read the second verse to know that if the first one meant to mean that God is just turning man's heart however he pleases, then the second verse directly contradicts it. Even in isolation, the first verse is not deterministic, Because it clearly states that God only channels the heart that pleases him. Again, there are conditions.
 
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One more point I’d like to make is that Calvinism didn’t begin until the 16th century and to say that it is the true gospel is to say that all of Christianity for the first 1500+ years was incorrect. That no church had the correct gospel. The men taught by the apostles themselves were wrong. That’s extremely hard to believe and means that for the first 1500 years everyone was being deceived by the church.

Guess I'll start with your concluding thoughts here about the origin of Calvinism. The Reformed faith goes all the way back to the Scriptures, and we can trace our doctrines throughout Church history, especially in the early Church father St. Augustine. Two (certainly there were more) of the most prominent Reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin had their religious training in the Catholic Augustinian order, both refer to St. Augustine with high regard, and neither invented a new religion, both had similar goals in Reforming the Catholic Church, John Calvin wrote of the necessity of Reforming the Church, Martin Luther posted his disputations on the Wittenberg Church door. So whoever put those ideas in your head is terribly mistaken and needs to brush up on Church history.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sorry I have not responded, it is a rather lengthy article like post, and without much Scripture, but I will pick a section or two to respond to.
Guess I'll start with your concluding thoughts here about the origin of Calvinism. The Reformed faith goes all the way back to the Scriptures, and we can trace our doctrines throughout Church history, especially in the early Church father St. Augustine. Two (certainly there were more) of the most prominent Reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin had their religious training in the Catholic Augustinian order, both refer to St. Augustine with high regard, and neither invented a new religion, both had similar goals in Reforming the Catholic Church, John Calvin wrote of the necessity of Reforming the Church, Martin Luther posted his disputations on the Wittenberg Church door. So whoever put those ideas in your head is terribly mistaken and needs to brush up on Church history.

Sorry I got my information on the beginning of Calvinism from Britanica. If Cavin’s doctrines go all the way back to the scriptures and early church why don’t any of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches teach them? Calvinism is a new religion, it’s not Catholic or Orthodox. Why does it matter what St Augustine wrote if it wasn’t church doctrine? The pentarchy decided doctrine not St Augustine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Guess I'll start with your concluding thoughts here about the origin of Calvinism. The Reformed faith goes all the way back to the Scriptures, and we can trace our doctrines throughout Church history, especially in the early Church father St. Augustine. Two (certainly there were more) of the most prominent Reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin had their religious training in the Catholic Augustinian order, both refer to St. Augustine with high regard, and neither invented a new religion, both had similar goals in Reforming the Catholic Church, John Calvin wrote of the necessity of Reforming the Church, Martin Luther posted his disputations on the Wittenberg Church door. So whoever put those ideas in your head is terribly mistaken and needs to brush up on Church history.

I’ll ask my questions one at a time to make this easier. Why did Jonah rebel against God if he was chosen by God?
 
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I don't think you understand my theology at all,.

Since you identify as non-denom, it could be about anything, it can change on the fly, which is the hallmark of Sola Meia of a Church without historical creeds and confessions standards behind it to aid in preserving true doctrine, to aid in not going down the rabbit hole of Sola Meia, often mistaken as the "Biblicist" sure, that's aim of how many denominations and variations within non-denom? Sheesh how could one understand a theology which is not laid out before them? Not many are mind readers, save for God alone.
 
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Sorry I got my information on the beginning of Calvinism from Britanica. If Cavin’s doctrines go all the way back to the scriptures and early church why don’t any of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches teach them? Calvinism is a new religion, it’s not Catholic or Orthodox. Why does it matter what St Augustine wrote if it wasn’t church doctrine? The pentarchy decided doctrine not St Augustine.

The Canons of the Council of Orange
(529 AD)

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).

CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).

CANON 9. Concerning the succor of God. It is a mark of divine favor when we are of a right purpose and keep our feet from hypocrisy and unrighteousness; for as often as we do good, God is at work in us and with us, in order that we may do so.

CANON 10. Concerning the succor of God. The succor of God is to be ever sought by the regenerate and converted also, so that they may be able to come to a successful end or persevere in good works.

CANON 11. Concerning the duty to pray. None would make any true prayer to the Lord had he not received from him the object of his prayer, as it is written, "Of thy own have we given thee" (1 Chron. 29:14).

CANON 12. Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.

CANON 13. Concerning the restoration of free will. The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36).

CANON 14. No mean wretch is freed from his sorrowful state, however great it may be, save the one who is anticipated by the mercy of God, as the Psalmist says, "Let thy compassion come speedily to meet us" (Ps. 79:8), and again, "My God in his steadfast love will meet me" (Ps. 59:10).

CANON 15. Adam was changed, but for the worse, through his own iniquity from what God made him. Through the grace of God the believer is changed, but for the better, from what his iniquity has done for him. The one, therefore, was the change brought about by the first sinner; the other, according to the Psalmist, is the change of the right hand of the Most High (Ps. 77:10).

CANON 16. No man shall be honored by his seeming attainment, as though it were not a gift, or suppose that he has received it because a missive from without stated it in writing or in speech. For the Apostle speaks thus, "For if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21); and "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men" (Eph. 4:8, quoting Ps. 68:18). It is from this source that any man has what he does; but whoever denies that he has it from this source either does not truly have it, or else "even what he has will be taken away" (Matt. 25:29).

CANON 17. Concerning Christian courage. The courage of the Gentiles is produced by simple greed, but the courage of Christians by the love of God which "has been poured into our hearts" not by freedom of will from our own side but "through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" (Rom. 5:5).

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

CANON 21. Concerning nature and grace. As the Apostle most truly says to those who would be justified by the law and have fallen from grace, "If justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21), so it is most truly declared to those who imagine that grace, which faith in Christ advocates and lays hold of, is nature: "If justification were through nature, then Christ died to no purpose." Now there was indeed the law, but it did not justify, and there was indeed nature, but it did not justify. Not in vain did Christ therefore die, so that the law might be fulfilled by him who said, "I have come not to abolish them, but to fulfil them" (Matt. 5:17), and that the nature which had been destroyed by Adam might be restored by him who said that he had come "to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).

CANON 22. Concerning those things that belong to man. No man has anything of his own but untruth and sin. But if a man has any truth or righteousness, it from that fountain for which we must thirst in this desert, so that we may be refreshed from it as by drops of water and not faint on the way.

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

CANON 24. Concerning the branches of the vine. The branches on the vine do not give life to the vine, but receive life from it; thus the vine is related to its branches in such a way that it supplies them with what they need to live, and does not take this from them. Thus it is to the advantage of the disciples, not Christ, both to have Christ abiding in them and to abide in Christ. For if the vine is cut down another can shoot up from the live root; but one who is cut off from the vine cannot live without the root (John 15:5ff).

CANON 25. Concerning the love with which we love God. It is wholly a gift of God to love God. He who loves, even though he is not loved, allowed himself to be loved. We are loved, even when we displease him, so that we might have means to please him. For the Spirit, whom we love with the Father and the Son, has poured into our hearts the love of the Father and the Son (Rom. 5:5).

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness."

Perhaps you've not read from these early statements from this early Catholic Church council? Pelagius is refuted by them by name, so obviously it matters to them what St Augustine wrote or are you not familiar with Augustine's writings against Palagius?
 
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Loren T.

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The Arminian doctrine that God sovereignly decided to create an area of created reality (man’s will) outside of His control is irrational. It is a theological impossibility. Why? Because God by nature is absolutely sovereign and all powerful. He cannotcreate a pocket of chance or pure contingency in His creation. God would have to cease to be God and deny Himself to do so.

Sovereign does not mean all controlling. It means supreme ruler or:
1.possessing supreme or ultimate power.
synonyms: supreme, absolute, unlimited, unrestricted, boundless, ultimate, total, unconditional, full.
You are limiting God by telling him what he can or can't do. Of course, God can control or not control man to whatever degree he wishes. Being made in the image of God, we are the only creatures he has given limited authority to. Psalm 115:16



God could no more cease control of man’s spirit then He could create a being that could exist apart from His sustaining power. God has created all things. He controls all things that come to pass by His power, and according to His plan. There is not one atom or one creature beyond His power and control. The very reason that God knows every bit of history in advance is not just that He knows all things and is outside of time, but also because everything comes to pass according to His decree. Nothing can occur without His ordering. .

The Bible contradicts you on this over and over and in fact, the very verses you try and use to prove it true contradict it. Why would God have to harden Pharaoh's already rebellious heart, if Pharaoh was already a puppet in God's hands? Why would God have to send his spirit to convict people if he was already controlling everything that went on in their hearts, mind and spirit? That's like saying the puppet master has to change the puppets mind and heart to get him to do what he wants. They would already be doing everything he wants! Why does God say over and over and over again that he desires his people to follow him but they refuse, if he is already directly controlling every firing of the neurons in their brains and the content of their souls and spirits? It's total nonsense and anyone who reads the Bible as it is on the page without bringing some presupposition to it, can see it's nonsense. It makes all of history a sham and makes the incarnation totally unnecessary.

“Should anything take place contrary to the will of God, because in the opinion of the finite creature it is not ‘good,’ then Satan and man (on occasion at least) must be equal or superior to the Creator whose Word claims that He is omnipotent and wholly irresistible! On the other hand, if the determinative will of Jehovah reflects His immutable nature of Being, it can neither be obstructed nor cancelled. Therefore, whatever comes to pass in any part of creation, at any time in history, does so because the omniscient God knew it as a possibility, willed it as a reality by His omnipotence, and established it in His divine plan or purpose.”80
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html#f80

Sez who? Are you following this philosopher or are you following the God who is revealed in scripture, who says people can and do disobey them and who will go to the length of dying to win them back?
 
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Loren T.

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"BNR32FAN,


By the gift of the Holy spirit we are given the ability to overcome our sinful nature but it is up to us whether we choose to obey the Holy Spirit or not. Calvinism teaches that God is responsible for everyone who will burn in the lake of fire. God sent Jesus to save the world because He loved the world. Just because God foresaw our choices doesn’t mean He made the choices for us. We are responsible for our outcome. That’s why God doesn’t interfere with our free will except on a few situations where someone was chosen by God for a specific task like the prophets or Pharaoh. This is what confuses many people about Romans 8. Jonah is a prime example of a person chosen by God yet Jonah rebelled against God and got on a boat headed away from Nineveh. God intervened because He knew Jonah would obey eventually. Jonah was chosen by God yet he rebelled against God proving that he still had free will.
[/QUOTE]
You have already stated that free will does not exist and it's an idol.? um, ok? Who is talking here?
 
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Sovereign does not mean all controlling. It means supreme ruler or: 1.possessing supreme or ultimate power.
synonyms: supreme, absolute, unlimited, unrestricted, boundless, ultimate, total, unconditional, full.
You are limiting God by telling him what he can or can't do. Of course, God can control or not control man to whatever degree he wishes. Being made in the image of God, we are the only creatures he has given limited authority to. Psalm 115:16

Stawman, I never once said "sovereign" means "all controlling". That would be your preconceived baised against Calvinism speaking. In appears you've never read any of the Calvinistic confessions. Here's one example:

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
Chapter IX


I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.


So it is YOU who assumed that by "sovereign" I meant "all controlling", which is clearly not the case as evidenced by this post.
 
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I’ll ask my questions one at a time to make this easier. Why did Jonah rebel against God if he was chosen by God?

Simple, I already mentioned in this thread that sanctification (which is distinct from regeneration) is synergistic. next...
 
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sdowney717

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By the gift of the Holy spirit we are given the ability to overcome our sinful nature but it is up to us whether we choose to obey the Holy Spirit or not. Calvinism teaches that God is responsible for everyone who will burn in the lake of fire. God sent Jesus to save the world because He loved the world. Just because God foresaw our choices doesn’t mean He made the choices for us. We are responsible for our outcome. That’s why God doesn’t interfere with our free will except on a few situations where someone was chosen by God for a specific task like the prophets or Pharaoh. This is what confuses many people about Romans 8. Jonah is a prime example of a person chosen by God yet Jonah rebelled against God and got on a boat headed away from Nineveh. God intervened because He knew Jonah would obey eventually. Jonah was chosen by God yet he rebelled against God proving that he still had free will.

Resistance against the will of God is futile. God subjected the creation to futility.
What God has determined in the council of His own will, He will perform.
Paul argues about how it is God who is at work in people as lumps of clay in His hands to make of them as He wishes and that man can not resist God ultimately, but he can try for a time.

Why does God still find fault in a man? Seeing it of God whether they receive mercy and love, or are hardened in their sins.

And the answer is God has power over the fallen race of man to do with them whatever He wishes.
And for some He has mercy and they are saved, and others do not receive mercy and remain condemned for their sins.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
 
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Stawman, I never once said "sovereign" means "all controlling". That would be your preconceived baised against Calvinism speaking. In appears you've never read any of the Calvinistic confessions. Here's one example:
This is what you said: "God could no more cease control of man’s spirit then He could create a being that could exist apart from His sustaining power. God has created all things. He controls all things that come to pass by His power, and according to His plan."

I don't see any room for anything but all controlling. Yeah, I've read that, it totally contradicts itself.

You can't have both this:
"I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil."
and have all controlling.
 
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The Bible contradicts you on this over and over and in fact, the very verses you try and use to prove it true contradict it. Why would God have to harden Pharaoh's already rebellious heart, if Pharaoh was already a puppet in God's hands? Why would God have to send his spirit to convict people if he was already controlling everything that went on in their hearts, mind and spirit? That's like saying the puppet master has to change the puppets mind and heart to get him to do what he wants. They would already be doing everything he wants! Why does God say over and over and over again that he desires his people to follow him but they refuse, if he is already directly controlling every firing of the neurons in their brains and the content of their souls and spirits? It's total nonsense and anyone who reads the Bible as it is on the page without bringing some presupposition to it, can see it's nonsense. It makes all of history a sham and makes the incarnation totally unnecessary.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth–in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,"

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

1 Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

YOUR presuppositions brought to Scripture contradict the Scriptures as evidenced by your reply. That you do not even recognize them as presuppositons, is telling in itself. It is like saying; "oh no I do not approach Scripture with a worldview, I have no biases one way or the other, my heart, mind, and soul approach Scripture as a blank slate", sorry Charlie but it is never the case for anyone.
 
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