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Featured Predestination

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by akmom, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    = salvation for the self-righteous only.
     
  2. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    "In Him" we have redemption. Outside of him, we don't. He has made known to us the mystery of his will, so it is no longer a mystery. What is his will? That "He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him." Again, only those that are in him receive an inheritance and they will all be saved. There is not one trace of limited election here. Ephesians chapter one actually stands as perhaps the strongest proof-text for Arminian Election since it firmly places eternal election in Christ. What are the "all things" God is working? Simply, the plan of salvation. God's plan is not altered because some do not enter in. And again, there is no individual election here.
     
  3. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    You must have a far different definition of "control" than the dictionary does. As a verb it means "determine the behavior or supervise the running of." Now, the article that you quoted claims God controls everything. No exceptions. And determinism demands that God control everything without exception and you have been promoting determinism. At least Brian is being consistent with his philosophy, while you seem to be trying to hold to some form of capatibalism. Yeah, I've been exposed to that one, and it's inherently illogical to say God is completely controlling and man still makes real
    choices.
    No one is debating whether God has ultimate authority. What we are debating is whether God gave men free will. If God is not directly controlling everything, every thought that ever enters your mind, then you have some form of free will. You need to decide which it is. Because "control" for an all powerful being does not just mean to have authority over or to govern. Governments can not control every thought and every movement of your hand. When you say everything is under his power, that would have to mean God personally controls every movement of your hand on the key board and every sin you commit, to the point that God is the one doing it all and you are just a puppet. Otherwise, you are not completely under his power, but only partially. Maybe you can begin to see why I say you guys constantly contradict yourselves.
     
  4. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Of course, it's still grace. No one saves themselves and no one is claiming that. It's one of the calvinists biggest strawmen. Being given a gift and accepting that gift does not somehow make one worthy of it. That's all we do, accept it by faith. There is no self righteousness or work involved.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Accepting the gift = act of righteousness powered by self = self-righteousness.
     
  6. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Where is that written? Jesus says the work we have to do to be his is to believe. Apparently, he didn't think believing was somehow self righteous.
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If believing is a condition for salvation, and you must choose to believe, that is an act of self-righteousness that you trust in to save you. Real faith believes without choosing to do so.
     
  8. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Now I bet here comes the reply where we have a choice but we don’t have free will. I’m not sure how that works. If you have no free will you have no choice. Calvinism just goes round & round making absolutely no sense at all when you begin to break it all down and address the specifics. I didn’t see his post until this morning but you pretty much covered the same answers I would’ve given except I would’ve also mentioned 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4. If God wants everyone to repent and to be saved and we have no free will then why isn’t everyone saved?
     
  9. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    What does that even mean? We are all presented the choice of whether or not to trust Christ. Throughout scripture God pleads with his people to choose him over idols, to return to him. If this somehow lessons God's glory or exalts man, then God is not too concerned his glory. But of course, it doesn't because this is the way God has chosen for salvation to work.
     
  10. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    THE dictionary huh? If you spend much time with dictionaries, you begin to see differences in definitions, nuances, variations, shades of definition. One reason is, the English language has and is ever changing. Another is words quite often have more than one meaning, and context is quite often the guide for meaning.

    Ah ha, "at least Brian is being consistent", nice try. Calvinism as a whole historically for the majority have held to some form of compatibilism, yes I hold to some form of compatibilism. Perhaps you could expound on your philosophy of the will, and here is a helpful chart in determining the view.

    DeterminismXFreeWill.jpg


    I have already explained and quoted from different confessions on the subject of free will. For goodness sakes there is only one mention in all of Scripture using the term, and it has a context, a "free will offering", this would be done by a priest, a priest is an anointed man chosen by God, in this context a Priest is of the elect, chosen by God, regenerated and the will set free from the bondage of sin. So the point is, "free will" in the context of the one verse, does not apply or refer to unregenerate mankind.

    Here is another chart, one that I worked on but never really completed, but it still conveys thought and meaning behind it.

    Theonomy vs. Autonomy.jpg
    Now where does your view of free will put you in the chart above?​
     
  11. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Amazing sovereign grace opens ones eyes to just that. Humbling it is and more.
     
  12. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Faith in the choices of God, trusting in Him, knowing it is He that grants repentance and works to do His will, no boasting but in Christ.
     
  13. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Charts and graphs don't mean much. I'm somewhere in the vicinity of wesleyan arminian, if that helps. Only in the general sense,though, as I would disagree with Wesley on certain points.
    Well, you quoted Pink, who I believe was a hard determinist, and this Brian guy seems to be in the same group, whether he admits it or not. The Hyper determinists are the only ones who are honest about where the idea of no free will leads. Most of the rest of you do this dance between what you call free will, which it really isn't, since God is actually determining what your strongest desire will be, and total bondage. And you wonder why you confuse people.
     
  14. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Lol, to have faith in the choices of God requires that you make a choice.
     
  15. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Faith is a gift of God.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    1 Corinthians 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are not presented with a choice. The gospel is not law. It is good news for whoever believe it. If you must decide to believe, it's because you don't believe.
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If salvation depends on an act of the will, you believe a false gospel. The gospel is not an offer made to the self-righteous. It is an announcement of salvation for all who believe.
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Jesus said if you love the Father, then you will love the Son when He appears in the circumstances of your life.
    v38, if you do not have God's word already priorly abiding inside you, then you will not believe in Christ.==predestination. God prepares the heart so a person is willing to believe and come to Christ.
    No one has the power to come to Christ believing in Him without the enabling grace of God.

    These unbelieving jews, Jesus said, were unable and unwilling to believe in Him because God's word was not already abiding inside them when Christ appears on the scene. They did not have the love of God inside of them, which tells me they were not born of God, means they were not of God and were therefore not loving Christ whom God sent, otherwise they would have loved Christ as they would have been of God, meaning born of God, spiritually alive to recognize the Christ of God.

    All this proves we must be born of God first, be of God to hear the Word of God, the Christ. He who is of God hears God's words, if you do not hear, then you are not of God, (not of the Father, not born again).
    Until a man is born again, he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. If you are not born again, then you are not 'of God'. That does not mean you will never be 'of God' at a future time, but its not a good situation to be in as it shows you are spiritually dead.

    We were all spiritually dead in trespasses and sins in our past life, but God had mercy on us and made us alive, so then born of God, enabled and granted us to come to Christ and be saved after we trusted and believed in Him and then have eternal life the same as they have to live forever.

    John 5
    37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

    41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

    John 8
    Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
    37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

    Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.


    43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

    44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

    47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
     
  19. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I sense one who is hiding in the shadows. I do like Pink, but have not quoted him in this thread. What makes you think a person must agree one hundred and ten percent to quote the person? Goodness I couldn't agree with myself, I mean especially my thoughts and writings before I became a Calvinist. Even afterwords so much learning and growing, and I expect to continue to learn and grow to the end of my days. There are oceans and oceans of learning, and much to be gleaned, even from those with whom I may not completely agree with. But as for Brian and me, I already explained in the post you laughed at. And again, I post helpful charts and you fluff them off. Guess what? I used to be a full fledged convinced Wesleyan minus the complete sanctification in this lifetime doctrine.
     
  20. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    So if you don't believe as a baby, you can never believe? How does one come to believe in any thing, but by choice? That would mean some are just born saved and God just hits the activation button? Paul should have told the jailer if God wants you to be saved, he will do it, I can't help you. Jesus was way out of line to say your faith has made you whole, or to say the work of God is to believe on the one who he sent. Why does God keep pleading with people to believe and follow, if he just sprinkles Faith Dust on some and not on another's?
     
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