Predestination

[zoidar]

All of humanity is predestined to return to God.
God will call us back several times to the one true path of Him.
Ppl veer off the path by choice.
All were predestined to enter Heaven.
Not all make it....via choice.

It's a bit of my stand too, that everyone is elected through the cross and that God draws everyone. That everyone's name is from the beginning written in the book of life, all because of God's LOVE, Jesus redeeming love.

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." /Ps 69:28

David believed that you can be be blotted out of the book of life.


He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
/Rev 3:5

"I will not erase his name" Why saying this if his name COULDN'T be erased from the book of life?


All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast), everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
/Rev 13:8

I think the book of life is like God's memory. From the beginning we all are in God's memory/the book of life, but if we don't make it to heaven we are erased from God's memory, and it will be as we never ever were there in the first place.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. /Isa 65:17

God is GOOD! (Luk 18:19). He wants to remember everyone. He LOVES all of us!

 

[St_Worm2]

Are you working on the answers St Worm2 ?

Hi Zoidar, I haven't been, sorry about that. Real life (so to speak) has taken a bite out of my time here the last couple of days, so I've only been dropping by to check in and quickly answer a question or two in a few of the other threads I'm involved in. I will try to return to this thread later on today, but I need to run again now.

Thanks for answering that one set of questions I left for you. We're basically on the same page about that stuff (except for the scope of God's election, of course ), so let's go straight to discussing that, if that's ok with you?

In Christ,
David

 

[zoidar]

@St Worm2:

Real life? Heard about it

Sure we can discuss election if you like. It still would be interesting to have your answers to my last replies. There is also a disagreement whom Jesus died for.

Right now I'm at a retreat at a benedictine monastery. I'm back on Sunday, though I will probably check this forum every day.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It's a bit of my stand too, that everyone is elected through the cross and that God draws everyone. That everyone's name is from the beginning written in the book of life, all because of God's LOVE, Jesus redeeming love.

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." /Ps 69:28

David believed that you can be be blotted out of the book of life.


He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
/Rev 3:5

"I will not erase his name" Why saying this if his name COULDN'T be erased from the book of life?


All who dwell on the earth will worship him (the beast), everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
/Rev 13:8

I think the book of life is like God's memory. From the beginning we all are in God's memory/the book of life, but if we don't make it to heaven we are erased from God's memory, and it will be as we never ever were there in the first place.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. /Isa 65:17

God is GOOD! (Luk 18:19). He wants to remember everyone. He LOVES all of us!

The book of life - i feel is symbolic...and could be the MIND or memory of God.

It makes sense that no one in Heaven can read the book - rather - know who is in the book.
To know them and not see them - would be tearful to them...or cause anguish.
So they who are lost - via their own faults - are no longer in memory of those in Heaven.
Thats not to say Saints in Heaven cannot see the living... [clouds of witnesses/judging the nations etc]
It just means once someone passes and if they are judged eternally damned - then their memory is no more for anyone in Heaven.

For no tears can exist in Heaven.

 

[Neogaia777]

All of humanity is predestined to return to God.
God will call us back several times to the one true path of Him.
Ppl veer off the path by choice.
All were predestined to enter Heaven.
Not all make it....via choice.

I don't think your fully understanding predestination...?

The Son tries to get all, and manages to get all, several times in life usually to a point to make the good and right choice of choosing him and getting to go to heaven... But, the Father, The Father knows "all"... Including all the choices of everyone, including the Son, including the enemy, including every single one of us and is the only who knows way, way, ahead of time "all" the choices everyone will make from the beginning of creation to it's end... The Son may know now, and may have even known as a man after being baptised, but did not always, like as our God in the OT...

God Bless!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Jesus chose not to know everything while in the flesh....as Him being God before the incarnation - He knew humanity would inquire. And it is not to be known...so He concealed such knowledge from Himself in His Flesh because the flesh cannot know.
But He was always 100& God.

ALL are His - all.
But free will exists and although we may slip up [even though God foresees it, doesnt mean it is His plan] - He will keep helping us to get on and stay on the path via grace.

 

[zoidar]

Thanks for answering that one set of questions I left for you. We're basically on the same page about that stuff (except for the scope of God's election, of course ), so let's go straight to discussing that, if that's ok with you?

In Christ,
David

Hi again David. I have questioned myself why I want to talk about this, and I have noticed that I have done it for the wrong reasons. I believe in my heart that Jesus died on the cross for everyone, and that is why I love Jesus so much. I believe that truth isn't found though systematic theology, but through faith given by the holy Spirit. That means that no matter how much I search the scriptures for the truth or how many people I talk about theology, I will never be satisfied with an answer. The only answer that gives real peace in the heart, is the answer given by the holy Spirit. So by saying this, I'm leaving this discussion. Thanks for talking! The LOVE of God is beyond comprehension.

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[Jipsah]

I am trying to discover the truth about it.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The doctrine of Predestination caused the Presbyterian Church in America in the 19th Century to give no effort into winning souls for Christ. It believed that God was the One who chose to save sinners, and there was no point in trying to convert people. Charles Finney went against that and taught that people could choose whether they wanted to accept Christ or not. He came under severe criticism from the Presbyterian Church and ended up leaving it and joining the Congregational church. The Presbyterians would not ordain him as a minister because of his free-will views, and would only ordain him as an evangelist.

Finney won thousands to Christ, and there were instances where he would walk through a workplace and workers would break down and tearfully accept Christ as Saviour. He had continuous revival wherever he went until the day he retired from the ministry in his 80s.

I believe that God is all-knowing, and knows beforehand who will have faith and who will not. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. This is why the invitation is open to all. But He has given the choice to individuals whether they want to take up the invitation or not. So my view of predestination is that a person is predestined to eternal life through that person's faith in Christ. No one is predestined to eternal damnation. That comes about through a person's choice. Even Pharoah had the choice whether to soften his heart toward God or not. He chose to harden his heart, so God, having known that, used him for His purpose to show His power at the Red Sea.

Even in revival times where God moves sovereignly, people have the choice of whether to respond or turn away. Many responded in times of revival, but many others turned away and opposed it.

 

[St_Worm2]

The doctrine of Predestination caused the Presbyterian Church in America in the 19th Century to give no effort into winning souls for Christ. It believed that God was the One who chose to save sinners, and there was no point in trying to convert people. Charles Finney went against that and taught that people could choose whether they wanted to accept Christ or not. He came under severe criticism from the Presbyterian Church and ended up leaving it and joining the Congregational church. The Presbyterians would not ordain him as a minister because of his free-will views, and would only ordain him as an evangelist.

Finney won thousands to Christ, and there were instances where he would walk through a workplace and workers would break down and tearfully accept Christ as Saviour. He had continuous revival wherever he went until the day he retired from the ministry in his 80s.

I believe that God is all-knowing, and knows beforehand who will have faith and who will not. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. This is why the invitation is open to all. But He has given the choice to individuals whether they want to take up the invitation or not. So my view of predestination is that a person is predestined to eternal life through that person's faith in Christ. No one is predestined to eternal damnation. That comes about through a person's choice. Even Pharoah had the choice whether to soften his heart toward God or not. He chose to harden his heart, so God, having known that, used him for His purpose to show His power at the Red Sea.

Even in revival times where God moves sovereignly, people have the choice of whether to respond or turn away. Many responded in times of revival, but many others turned away and opposed it.

Hi Oscarr, for clarity's sake, Finney was part of the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (now merged with the United Presbyterian Church and known collectively by the abbreviation, PCUSA), not the conservative Presbyterian Church in America (which was formed in 1973).

That said, I would be interested in reading about the 'original' PCUSA's stance AGAINST evangelism in Finney's day (quite frankly, because I find it to be so disturbing .. if true), so I was hoping that you could point me in the right direction to find that particular history (because so far, unfortunately, I have not been able to find any mention of it).

Thanks

Yours and His,
David

........Charles Grandison Finney​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Oscarr, for clarity's sake, Finney was part of the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (now merged with the United Presbyterian Church and known collectively by the abbreviation, PCUSA), not the conservative Presbyterian Church in America (which was formed in 1973).

That said, I would be interested in reading about the 'original' PCUSA's stance AGAINST evangelism in Finney's day (quite frankly, because I find it to be so disturbing .. if true), so I was hoping that you could point me in the right direction to find that particular history (because so far, unfortunately, I have not been able to find any mention of it).

Thanks

Yours and His,
David

........Charles Grandison Finney​

I gained the information about the early 19th Century Presbyterian Church from my American Church History texts that I studied for my Mdiv. You might have to do some digging in a seminary library near to you to find that information. The Church history did go into discussions about the theology of the time and it was clear that the Presbyterian Church did have Predestination as a principal doctrine. Jonathan Edwards believed in it, and he spent much time in prayer that the Holy Spirit would fall on his hearers and bring them to Christ. Nowhere did he give an appeal for people to make a choice. The matter of choice was one of the biggest bones of contention between Finney and the Presbyterian church leaders of his time.

 

[zoidar]

Hi Zoidar, the "us" in Ephesians 1:4 refers specifically to those the Epistle is addressed to, the "saints" (see v1 below).

​

If ALL w/o exception are chosen/elect/predestined, then none are (at least not in the sense of being separated/chosen out of something, which is what Biblical "choosing" always involves). It also seems to me that if the Cross resulted in the "justification of life to all men" w/o exception, then all men would be saved, w/o exception, so unless you are a Universalist, v18, taken out of context, says far more than you want it to

I read somewhere that the focus of St. Paul is on method (rather than on numbers) in these verses in Romans 5, and that while the "all" in the first half of v18 is certainly referring to all men w/o exception, the "all" in the second half of the verse is referring specifically (and necessarily) to all "believers" w/o exception.

The contrast in the prior verse, v17, seems to make that point:

​

I think the Apostle says it best in this short verse however:

"As in Adam all die, so also in Christ, all will be made alive." ~1 Cor 15:22​

Yours in Christ,
David

I came to think of this post for some reason a few days ago. And I want to reply to it. I don't know if you are here to read it St_Worm2. Better late than never, right.

I read somewhere that the focus of St. Paul is on method (rather than on numbers) in these verses in Romans 5, and that while the "all" in the first half of v18 is certainly referring to all men w/o exception, the "all" in the second half of the verse is referring specifically (and necessarily) to all "believers" w/o exception.

The contrast in the prior verse, v17, seems to make that point:

I don't believe that v.17 contrasts v.18, rather v. 16 contrasts v. 18

16 ... for the judgment indeed [is] of one (offence) to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many (all men's) offences to a declaration of `Righteous,'

18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

and verse 17 contrasts 19

17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

1 Cor 15:22 doesn't say "all MEN", it says just all. Big difference! I believe when Paul says "ALL MEN" he means all men, and not just many men.

 

[St_Worm2]

1 Cor 15:22 doesn't say "all MEN", it says just all. Big difference! I believe when Paul says "ALL MEN" he means all men, and not just many men.

Hi Zoidar, I'm outta here unfortunately, but I will leave you with this until tomorrow (Dv), has there ever been a human being who is not a descendant of Adam?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

1 Corinthians 15
22 In Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

 

[zoidar]

Hi Zoidar, I'm outta here unfortunately, but I will leave you with this until tomorrow (Dv), has there ever been a human being who is not a descendant of Adam?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

1 Corinthians 15
22 In Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Thank you David for sharing!

16For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Also then those (the many) having fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If only in this life we are having hope in Christ, we are more to be pitied than all men.
20But now Christ has been raised out from the dead, the firstfruit of those (the many) having fallen asleep . 21For since death came by a man, so also by a man has come the resurrection of the dead. 22For as indeed in Adam all (the many) die, so also in Christ all (the many) will be made alive. 23But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming

Paul is focusing all trough on those that have "fallen asleep in Christ". Not those that haven't. Sure all men die in Adam, but that is not what Paul is pointing out here. His point is that as in Adam WE die, how much more will WE be saved through his life.

Now we look at Rom 5

12Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all MEN (!), because all sinned. 13For until the Law, sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed, there being no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the coming One.
15But so also the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one, the many (those having fallen asleep in Christ) died, how much more did the grace of God and the gift in grace, which is of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many!


Rom 5:18-19

18So then, just as through one trespass, it is unto condemnation to all men, so also through one act of righteousness it is unto justification of life to all men.

In 18, Pauls talks about Adam that he is the condemnation to all men, so also Jesus is the manifestation (rom 3:21) of righteousness to all men. Here he is not saying that all men are righteous in Christ, but that Christ is the righteousness to all men, to be received by faith (Rom 5:17).

19For as indeed through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous.

Now he talks about those who will believe in Christ, the many, they were made sinners by one man, and will be made righteous by One man.

So 1 Cor 15 corresponds with Rom 5:19 and not Rom 5:18.

I got more to say about rom 5 if you got time. The key I noticed when studying it was that there are three different greek words translated to "gift".

God bless!

 

[zoidar]

Hi Zoidar, I'm outta here unfortunately, but I will leave you with this until tomorrow (Dv), has there ever been a human being who is not a descendant of Adam?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

1 Corinthians 15
22 In Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Here is how I understand Romans 5. I used the translation of YLT which I think is very close to the greek. The only "problem" i saw was that chárisma, dōreá and dṓrēma was translated with the same word "the free gift".

I think this is as close as I can get to the original translation and it's meaning. Please take a few minutes to look at how I have chosen colors etc. trying to explain how it fits together. Blessings and Love!


Rom 5:14-19

14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

15 But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift (chárisma – Jesus justifying act); for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift (dōreá – gift - righteousness of God) in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many (justified subjectively);

16 and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift (dṓrēma – Benefaction/Jesus justifying act), for the judgment (of Adam) indeed [is] of one (offence) to condemnation (to all men), but the gift (chárisma - Jesus justifying act) [is] of many offences to a declaration of `Righteous,' (the manifested righteousness of God, rom 3:21) (to all men).

17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift (dōreá – gift) of the righteousness (of God) are receiving (Justified subjectively), in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.

18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' (the manifested righteousness of God, rom 3:21) [it is] to all men to justification of life;

19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous (justified subjectively).


God bless you David, and bless everyone here on the forum! The LOVE of Christ through the cross to all men in the world

/P

 

[zoidar]

Hi Zoidar, I'm outta here unfortunately, but I will leave you with this until tomorrow (Dv), has there ever been a human being who is not a descendant of Adam?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

1 Corinthians 15
22 In Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Thank you David for sharing!

16For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Also then those (the many) having fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If only in this life we are having hope in Christ, we are more to be pitied than all men.
20But now Christ has been raised out from the dead, the firstfruit of those (the many) having fallen asleep . 21For since death came by a man, so also by a man has come the resurrection of the dead. 22For as indeed in Adam all (the many) die, so also in Christ all (the many) will be made alive. 23But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming

Paul is focusing all trough on those that have "fallen asleep in Christ". Not those that haven't. Sure all men die in Adam, but that is not what Paul is pointing out here. His point is that as in Adam WE die, how much more will WE be saved through his life.

Now we look at Rom 5

12Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all MEN (!), because all sinned. 13For until the Law, sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed, there being no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those not having sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the coming One.
15But so also the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one, the many (those having fallen asleep in Christ) died, how much more did the grace of God and the gift in grace, which is of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many!


Rom 5:18-19

18So then, just as through one trespass, it is unto condemnation to all men, so also through one act of righteousness it is unto justification of life to all men.

In 18, Pauls talks about Adam that he is the condemnation to all men, so also Jesus is the manifestation (rom 3:21) of righteousness to all men. Here he is not saying that all men are righteous in Christ, but that Christ is the righteousness to all men, to be received by faith (Rom 5:17).

19For as indeed through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous.

Now he talks about those who will believe in Christ, the many, they were made sinners by one man, and will be made righteous by One man.

So 1 Cor 15 corresponds with Rom 5:19 and not Rom 5:18.

I got more to say about rom 5 if you got time. The key I noticed when studying it was that there are three different greek words translated to "gift".

God bless!

I like to add one thing about 1 Cor 15 that makes my argument even stronger. Vers 22 says:

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Then if we read on to vers 49 it says:

"Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

So in this case "all" doens't mean "all men", but "the many".

God bless!

 

[St_Worm2]

I like to add one thing about 1 Cor 15 that makes my argument even stronger. Vers 22 says:

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Then if we read on to vers 49 it says:

"Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

So in this case "all" doens't mean "all men", but "the many".

God bless!

Hi Zoidar, the question is, who is the "we" referring to in v49? I believe that in both cases you'll find that "we" refers to the saints, because only the saints "have borne" the image of the earthly AND "will bear" the image of the heavenly. So this verse is actually saying something quite different from v22, because v22 refers to all who are outside of Christ in the first half of the verse, and to the saints alone in the second.

--David

 

[zoidar]

Hi Zoidar, the question is, who is the "we" referring to in v49? I believe that in both cases you'll find that "we" refers to the saints, because only the saints "have borne" the image of the earthly AND "will bear" the image of the heavenly. So this verse is actually saying something quite different from v22, because v22 refers to all who are outside of Christ in the first half of the verse, and to the saints alone in the second.

--David

This is where we don't agree.

Look att the difference of 1 cor 15:22 and rom 5:18

"for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive"

Rom 5:18 "So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life"

Now look at the similarity of 1 cor 15:22 and rom 5:19

"for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive"

Rom 5:19 "for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous."

So clearly 1 cor 15 corrensponds with rom 5:19 and not rom 5:18.

And who are "the many"?

Let's read rom 5:19 again.

"for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many (those in Christ) were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many (those in Christ) be constituted righteous."

Do you really mean that the first "the many" in 5:19 also means all men, and the second "the many" means "those in Christ"?

If so I think Paul is using a very confusing language. Saying "the many" meaning "all men", saying "all men" meaning "the many". To me, it doesn't make sense at all.

When Paul says "all" in 1 cor 15 he doesn't mean "all men", he means "all of us".