Predestination

[OcifferPls]

I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.

John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.

Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

vs


2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

and

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.

A predestined salvation is a salvation according to the promissory and sovereign nature of God's word and activity. That his word is fulfilled to the benefit of a believer, is the same as being united to the will and activity of God and his Word. To be united to his Word is to be united to Christ, is to experience a fundamental change of identity, in those moments where there is no distinction between the activity of God and the activity of man. The Word of God is Christ.

This comes with a few caveats on my interpretation of the quoted scripture:

1. I don't read a "what if" statement as an assertion of fact.
2. I don't read Romans 9 as if this is being applied in a situation that makes absolutely no sense. Imagine God saying it to Pharaoh, who according to the text, was opposed by God, and you may see the reflective nature of God's justice -- God out "Pharaohing" Pharaoh paints a very different picture than God-as-Pharaoh (that being a god of the sort that Pharaoh might have been more inclined to worship).
3. I'm under no obligation to assent to classical theology where it makes a classic mess of things.

 

[zoidar]

It also seems to me that if the Cross resulted in the "justification of life to all men" w/o exception, then all men would be saved

Why? The bible clearly tells us we have to believe to receive his holy Spirit/salvation, why then would all men be saved because Jesus died for all men and objectively justified mankind? Were you saved before you came to faith?

I read somewhere that the focus of St. Paul is on method (rather than on numbers) in these verses in Romans 5, and that while the "all" in the first half of v18 is certainly referring to all men w/o exception, the "all" in the second half of the verse is referring specifically (and necessarily) to all "believers" w/o exception.

The contrast in the prior verse, v17, seems to make that point:

​

I think the Apostle says it best in this short verse however:

"As in Adam all die, so also in Christ, all will be made alive." ~1 Cor 15:22​

Yours in Christ,
David

You have a point in what you are saying about Rom 5. But there are a lot of other verses in the bible that mention that Christ died for all men, even those that won't receive him. And there are a few problems with the limited atonement belief:

1. If it is so, why does the holy spirit who is God, give you the will that everyone should be saved? I mean if Jesus died for some, would you really get such a strong will for the salvation of all men in the world through God, the holy Spirit?

2. Then there is a problem that if LA is true, then you can't know you are saved without "digging" into your self looking for faith. When you see no faith inside, then you no longer know if Jesus died for you.

3. It's also so that the bible says that even the saints can be lost. Preseverence of the saints is not true, and that must mean that if saints can lose their salvation, then likely everyone can gain salvation. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." /Matt 24:24

4. Then there is the thing with the LA. That is that the security of LA believers seem to come from believing you are one of the elect, and not though the belief of Christ LOVE through the cross. To me it feels like the focus is off, and brings you to trust in something else than what the bible tells you to trust in. When security comes from the cross, then there is PEACE.

5. Then there is also that thing, the belief that Christ died for all men gives you a STRONG LOVE for God, for Jesus and also for all men. His sacrifice for all men shows clearly that we should be mercyful, be like him, "sacrifice" ourselves for all men. If he didn't do it, why should we?

6. The belief that Christ died for all does something with your inner self. You become more loving, more caring. You get a softer heart. It gives you great joy.

7. It's very hard (at least it was for me) to talk about Gods love to someone without knowing if God died for him/her.

8. Then there is my personal salvation, when I gave my life to Jesus. I prayed: "I believe that you sent Jesus here to die for all men. I'm sorry I haven't believed in you before. If you forgive me, I will follow you with my life." And what happend? God touched me with the holy Spirit and saved me. Apparently the belief that Jesus died for all men was good enough for him.

 

[St_Worm2]

Why?

Well, pretty much because of what the Bible says (that the Cross resulted in the "justification of life to all men"), if "all" means "all" w/o exception, that is.

The bible clearly tells us we have to believe to receive his holy Spirit/salvation, why then would all men be saved because Jesus died for all men? Were you saved before you came to faith?

Which is exactly why v18 cannot mean what you want it to

You have a point in what you are saying about Rom 5. But there are a lot of other verses in the bible that mention that Christ died for all men, even those that won't receive him. And there are a few problems with the limited atonement belief:

1. If it is so, why does the holy spirit who is God, give you the will that everyone should be saved? I mean if Jesus died for some, would you really get such a strong will for the salvation of all men in the world through God, the holy Spirit?

We are called to preach the Gospel to all creatures, yes? It's not a feeling, it's a fact. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately ), I am not privy to the secret counsel of God, but He has given me/us all that we need to obey and please Him, yes .. Deuteronomy 29:29.

2. Then there is a problem that if LA is true, then you can't know you are saved without "digging" into your self looking for faith. When you see no faith inside, then you no longer know if Jesus died for you.

I don't think I'm following you on this one, but if I want to know if someone's claim of salvation is true, I take a look at what they do and say, and how they lead their lives (and how their life in Christ is different from their life before they claimed that He saved them).

Please explain what you mean above a little further if you wouldn't mind.

3. It's also so that the bible says that even the saints can be lost. Perseverance of the saints is not true, and that must mean that if saints can lose their salvation, then likely everyone can gain salvation. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." /Matt 24:24

If true Christians can lose their salvation, then what do we do with passages like John 5:24, John 6:37-40, John 10:26-28 and Hebrews 7:25, just to name a few

There are many who "think" they are Christians, or pretend to be, but the Bible makes it clear that they never were (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). As the Lord says to those who must have looked like "super-Christians" to those that knew them in this life, "I NEVER knew you" (not I USED to know you .. Matthew 7:22-23).

4. Then there is the thing with the LA. That is that the security of LA believers seem to come from believing you are one of the elect, and not though the belief of Christ LOVE through the cross. To me it feels like the focus is off, and brings you to trust in something else than what the bible tells you to trust in. When security comes from the cross, then there is PEACE.

If anyone believes they can know whether they are "elect" or not, they have not be properly taught, they haven't understood what they've been taught, or they're just make'n it up as they go along The only assurance we have of that is the same as anyone else's assurance of salvation, our knowledge that we have asked for forgiveness and asked the Lord to save us, and of course, our belief that He has (and the way we live our life is perhaps the best demonstration of whether our claim of being a Christian is true or not .. James 2:14-26).

We are saved by grace through faith in a) what Christ did for us and b) that His Father will save us on that basis alone, just like He promised us He would. We do not have "faith" in our election.

5. Then there is also that thing, the belief that Christ died for all men gives you a STRONG LOVE for God, for Jesus and also for all men. His sacrifice for all men shows clearly that we should be mercyful, be like him, "sacrifice" ourselves for all men. If he didn't do it, why should we?

a) Principally, because God commands us to and b) because we have no idea who the "elect" really are this side of Glory. Only God knows that

6. The belief that Christ died for all does something with your inner self. You become more loving, more caring. You get a softer heart. It gives you great joy.

Calvinists hope that all will be saved, but just like Arminians, we know most won't be. So while we have no idea who the elect are, what we do know is that "faith comes from hearing" .. Romans 10:17), so speaking and praying to ALL of the lost needs to be our occupation. Here are the words of one of the most famous Calvinist preachers of all time, and one of my favorite quotes of his. This is what we believe and what I hope to be able to say was my life's calling at the end of my life, especially that I regularly acted in regard to the last sentence of this quote:

It's very hard (at least it was for me) to talk about Gods love to someone without knowing if God died for him/her.

Again, we are not privy to that information, and I have learned, by the example of myself as much as any other, that you cannot read a book by its cover. You cannot know who will and who will not accept Christ just by "looking" at them or by getting a "feeling" about them, and neither can I. All we can do is be faithful to pray for and speak to all about the Lord (and then to pray and pray and pray ).

Then there is my personal salvation, when I gave my life to Jesus. I prayed: "I believe that you sent Jesus here to die for all men. I'm sorry I haven't believed in you before. If you forgive me, I will follow you with my life." And what happend? God touched me with the holy Spirit and saved me. Apparently the belief that Jesus died for all men was good enough for him.

Having a perfect theology is not a prerequisite of being saved, THANKFULLY I asked God to forgive me and repented of all the sins I could remember that night. Then I asked Him to come into my life as my Savior and Lord and asked to be filled with the HS. I didn't tell Him that I believed He came to save all men w/o exception however. Do you think that means that I'm not saved?

If you are really interested in what Calvinists believe, just ask, because from what I can see, all you really have is an understanding of what you "think" we believe, and what you "think" the doctrines of grace (TULIP) and the 5 "Solas" really mean (I truly mean no offense in saying that, it's simply what I've observed). I'm sure you will be just as surprised at what Calvinism/Reformed Theology really teaches as you were to read what one of our greatest preachers had to say about the lost in his quote above

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - let's try to aim at shorter replies to one another in the future too

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing,
but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

 

[zoidar]

Thanks for your answers St Worm2!

Well, pretty much because of what the Bible says (that the Cross resulted in the "justification of life to all men"), if "all" means "all" w/o exception, that is.

Which is exactly why v18 cannot mean what you want it to

Yes, Jesus died for all, like I said "objectively justified". All means all. That you are objectively justified doesn't mean that you are subjectely justified, which happens through faith. I think we agree on that. Even if you believe in LA you don't believe that you were subjectely justified before you came to faith. That means that Jesus carried your sins even when you weren't justified (subjectely). Why couldn't people then be objectively justified their whole life without ever becomning subjectely justified?

We are called to preach the Gospel to all creatures, yes? It's not a feeling, it's a fact.

Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the strong WILL or even PASSION that the holy Spirit gives you, the will that everyone should be saved. If that's the will that the holy Spirit gives you, then you can be sure that this is the will of God. And if it's the will of God, why would he want that if Jesus didn't die for all, if salvation weren't possible for all?

Please explain what you mean above a little further if you wouldn't mind.

I mean I don't have to look inside to know that I'm saved. I know I'm saved because Jesus has payed the price for my sins. It's not what I know about my faith that counts. But if you believe in LA, you can never just lean on the cross to know that you are saved, because you can't be sure that you are one of the elect unless you know you have faith. Therefore as a LA believer you first have to go to yourself to make sure you have faith, before you can know you are saved. I go to the cross to know, not myself.

What happens if a LA-believer feels he has lost his faith? Then he no longer knows if he is one of the elect, if Jesus died for him. I don't have that problem. I can always lean on the cross to know I'm saved, because I know that Jesus has died for all, then he has died for me. That's the strongest of hope. I don't look at my faith, I look at the cross.

If true Christians can lose their salvation, then what do we do with passages like John 5:24, John 6:37-40, John 10:26-28 and Hebrews 7:25, just to name a few

I know by experience. I know I was saved but turned away from God, went back to Buddhism. But I chose to put my hope in God again, which led to God raising me up. God won't leave you, and no one can "snatch you out of his hands" true, but if you snare yourself in sins you can come to the point where YOU CHOOSE to leave God.

a) Principally, because God commands us to and b) because we have no idea who the "elect" really are this side of Glory. Only God knows that, and He doesn't tell us

a)I don't think evangelisation should be done because God commands us, but because of your love for him and for people. b)To me it's a poor hope, hoping that someone will turn to God without knowing that Jesus has died for him/her and that he/she acctually can turn to God to be saved.

Calvinists believe and hope that all will be saved, but just like Arminians, we know most probably won't be. Still, we have no idea who the elect are, but what we do know is that "faith comes from hearing" Romans 10:17), so speaking and praying to ALL of the lost needs to be our occupation. Here are the words of one of the most famous Calvinist preachers of all time, and one of my favorite quotes of his. This is what we believe and what I hope to be able to say is my life calling at the end of my life, especially that I acted in regard to the last sentence of this quote:

That's a nice quote! Surely we should pray for everyone.

Having a perfect theology is not a prerequisite of being saved, THANKFULLY

I fully agree!

I asked God to forgive me and repented of all the sins I could remember that night. Then I asked Him to come into my life as my Savior and Lord and asked to be filled with the HS. I didn't tell Him that I believed He came to save all men w/o exception however. Do you think that means that I'm not saved?

No, I don't believe that. Just saying that God had no problem with me believing that Jesus died for all men when calling on him.

p.s. - let's try to aim at shorter replies to one another in the future too

Sorry, I tried

 

[Samson Reaper]

Hi David

The only part where I can agree with your post is:

The only question that remains is "what is the basis of God's choice"?​

And oddly enough I am with John Calvin and also Spurgeon on this: We do not know and cannot know as God as kept this secret from man.

'Standard' Calvinism, as in most Calvinists I have met, start of non hyper. Then start into hyper and back out again. If we are all lost then either God made us lost,so he is the author of sin, or God is nor Sovereign. Clavin stats in his Institutes that all this is a mystery. I am happy to leave it at that.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi SR, no Calvinist that I know of, including John Calvin, is the least bit unsure of why we are fallen as a race. Hyper-Calvinists (who share nothing in common with Calvinists except for part of their name .. which they hijacked from us ) teach that God caused the Fall. We, on the other hand, believe that it was our first parents choice to sin/disobey God in the Garden that caused the Fall, not God.

There are many things about God and why He does the things He does that we do not/cannot know, but concerning the Fall and who caused it, there is no mystery whatsoever.

 

[St_Worm2]

That you are objectively justified doesn't mean that you are subjectely justified, which happens through faith. I think we agree on that.

Actually, I don't. If the Bible tells us that the Cross is the cause of the "Justification of all" (where "all" includes every man, woman and child who ever lived), then ALL will be justified. To believe otherwise is to bend what v18 is saying to fit your presupposition, which may or may not be true.

Question, you believe that coming to faith in Christ is the only way any of us are saved, so where does that leave babies, toddlers, and unborn children who die before they have the wherewithal/understanding to make such a decision? Are they lost or are they saved? And if you believe they are saved (I certainly do), then how are they saved?

That means that Jesus carried your sins even when you weren't justified (subjectely). Why couldn't people then be objectively justified their whole life without ever becomning subjectely justified?

What purpose would He have in doing that? IOW, what difference, discernible or otherwise, would such an action on His part make in the lives of either the elect (before they come to faith), or in the lives of the reprobate (who never will)

I'm talking about the strong WILL or even PASSION that the holy Spirit gives you, the will that everyone should be saved. If that's the will that the holy Spirit gives you, then you can be sure that this is the will of God. And if it's the will of God, why would he want that if Jesus didn't die for all, if salvation weren't possible for all?

I think I need to understand a bit more about what you believe before I can comment, so please answer the questions below (one general answer about what you believe concerning all three questions will certainly do ).

1) Do you believe that all, w/o exception, will eventually be saved? IOW, do you believe in some form of Univeralism? Or.........
2) Do you believe that some will be eternally saved and that others will be eternally lost, and do you believe that God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, before we are even born? Or.............
3) Do you believe He doesn't know any of that, that He is waiting to see who chooses to come to faith AFTER they're born to know who will (and who will not) come to faith? (that our salvation and/or reprobation is, in essence, a mystery to Him until AFTER our choice or our denial of Him is made in this life?)​

I mean I don't have to look inside to know that I'm saved. I know I'm saved because Jesus has payed the price for my sins. It's not what I know about my faith that counts. But if you believe in LA, you can never just lean on the cross to know that you are saved, because you can't be sure that you are one of the elect unless you know you have faith. Therefore as a LA believer you first have to go to yourself to make sure you have faith, before you can know you are saved. I go to the cross to know, not myself.

Zoidar, please try to understand, we do NOT look to the fact that we are "elect" to know whether we are saved our not. I'm not sure how else I can say it. We believe we are "elect" because we already believe that we are among the "saved". The main purpose of election, at our level anyway, is in knowing just how much we mean to God. His choice/election of us shows us that we are not simply a blip on His radar, or an afterthought of some kind, or unexpected anomaly or a mistake His "choosing" of us as individuals from before the foundation of the world rules out any of those possibilities as it shows us, even more deeply, how much He truly loves us

What happens if a LA-believer feels he has lost his faith? Then he no longer knows if he is one of the elect, if Jesus died for him. I don't have that problem. I can always lean on the cross to know I'm saved, because I know that Jesus has died for all, then he has died for me. That's the strongest of hope. I don't look at my faith, I look at the cross.

Once again, you are not understanding what the doctrine of election or the doctrine of Limited Atonement teaches (or how we regard either one of them). Please consider again what I just wrote above.

I'll stop here and wait for your answers, because some of them will affect how I answer the rest of your questions below.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[zoidar]

Actually, I don't. If the Bible tells us that the Cross is the cause of the "Justification of all" (where "all" includes every man, woman and child who ever lived), then ALL will be justified. To believe otherwise is to bend what v18 is saying to fit your presupposition, which may or may not be true.

Maybe if you only look at Rom v.18. But there are other verses:

"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" /Joh 1:29

Obejective and subjective justification is the classic Lutheran faith, and I consider myself more or less a Lutheran.

Do you believe then that the elect are subjectly justified before they come to faith, then why do they have to come to faith to be saved? What would be the purpose of that ...

Question, you believe that coming to faith in Christ is the only way any of us are saved, so where does that leave babies, toddlers, and unborn children who die before they have the wherewithal/understanding to make such a decision? Are they lost or are they saved? And if you believe they are saved (I certainly do), then how are they saved?

I believe babies are saved. It's a mystery how because the bible doesn't say how. Why do you believe babies are saved and do you believe only elect babies are saved?

What purpose would He have in doing that? IOW, what difference, discernible or otherwise, would such an action on His part make in the lives of either the elect (before they come to faith), or in the lives of the reprobate (who never will)

I will unswer with this bible verse: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." The unswer is because of LOVE for mankind, because God wants to give this gift to everyone, wants all to believe in him and have the chance to say "Yes". If I know a person very well, I may know his choice but still I want him to make his own choice. Me knowing him that well, doesn't take away his free will.

I think I need to understand a bit more about what you believe before I can comment, so please answer the questions below (one general answer about what you believe concerning all three questions will certainly do ).

1) Do you believe that all, w/o exception, will eventually be saved? IOW, do you believe in some form of Univeralism? Or.........
2) Do you believe that some will be eternally saved and that others will be eternally lost, and do you believe that God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, before we are even born? Or.............
3) Do you believe He doesn't know any of that, that He is waiting to see who chooses to come to faith AFTER they're born to know who will (and who will not) come to faith? (that our salvation and/or reprobation is, in essence, a mystery to Him until AFTER our choice or our denial of Him is made in this life?)​

​

I would say 2, I thought that was quite clear. The bible doesn't say how many will be saved, but I don't believe that all will. God knows everything, and that means that he knows even before we we are born if we are to accept Jesus or not. There is a HUGE difference from knowing and selecting.

We believe we are "elect" because we already believe that we are among the "saved".

Why do you believe that you are among the saved? How can you know without looking at your own faith?

His "choosing" of us as individuals from before the foundation of the world rules out any of those possibilities as it shows us, even more deeply, how much He truly loves us

You mean it shows how much God loves some people? To me that is one of the problems with LA. I believe that God loves every single person exactly the same according to rom 2:11 "For there is no partiality with God."

Once again, you are not understanding what the doctrine of election or the doctrine of Limited Atonement teaches (or how we regard either one of them). Please consider again what I just wrote above.

I'll stop here and wait for your answers, because some of them will affect how I answer the rest of your questions below.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Blessing in Christ,

/P

 

[zoidar]

I got one more question for you St Worm2. Do you believe that if I for an example pray for someone, that person may have been elected before time because God knew I would pray for him? I mean like God before time took things into account that will happen in the future (like future prayers) when he elected?

 

[Neogaia777]

When Paul and Silas were in prison, God knew they were going to be, and foreordained and predestined the earthquake (I could be confusing this with Peter) but predestined and foreordained the earthquake, the angels, arranged it all, set-up the appearance of the providential nature of it all, from before he even first created anything that was...

This is why some seemingly chance meetings and occurances may not actually be chance at all, but something that was foreordained and predestined way beforehand by God, even very small, seemingly insignificant things, like your running into someone and praying for them, or being there at a car wreck, right when it happens and you do CPR and save someones life, or drag them out of burning automobile, or something else...

There is very little to no "chance" really...

I have experienced God's providence, foreordination and predestining and careful timing, of supposed coincidences in my life, that I could feel and tell, and just knew, God most definitely had a hand in it, for sure...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

When Paul and Silas were in prison, God knew they were going to be, and foreordained and predestined the earthquake (I could be confusing this with Peter) but predestined and foreordained the earthquake, the angels, arranged it all, set-up the appearance of the providential nature of it all, from before he even first created anything that was...

This is why some seemingly chance meetings and occurances may not actually be chance at all, but something that was foreordained and predestined way beforehand by God, even very small, seemingly insignificant things, like your running into someone and praying for them, or being there at a car wreck, right when it happens and you do CPR and save someones life, or drag them out of burning automobile, or something else...

There is very little to no "chance" really...

I have experienced God's providence, foreordination and predestining and careful timing, of supposed coincidences in my life, that I could feel and tell, and just knew, God most definitely had a hand in it, for sure...

God Bless!

Interesting view Neogaia777. You believe then that if I pray for someone, it is because God has forordained me to pray for that person? But doesn't that make us into marionetts controlled by God? And wouldn't that make that feeling that I control myself an illusion?

My view is that it's both our choice/free will, and God's choice/will. I don't think that God makes us do this or that, but that he leads us, pulls us, and uses situations for his good will. I choose to take the bus and that leads me to the car wreck, yet God wanted me there. I think it's a bit of a paradox, our free will and God's will ... and there is also the will of darkness, which makes it all into a gigantic battle in the cosmos, where God has allready won through the cross, hallelujah!

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." /Eph 6:10-12

 

[Neogaia777]

Interesting view Neogaia777. You believe then that if I pray for someone, it is because God has forordained me to pray for that person? But doesn't that make us into marionetts controlled by God? And wouldn't that make that feeling that I control myself an illusion?

My view is that it's both our choice/free will, and God's choice/will. I don't think that God makes us do this or that, but that he leads us, pulls us, and uses situations for his good will. I choose to take the bus and that leads me to the car wreck, yet God wanted me there. I think it's a bit of a paradox, our free will and God's will ... and there is also the will of darkness, which makes it all into a gigantic battle in the cosmos, where God has allready won through the cross, hallelujah!

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." /Eph 6:10-12

The Father preordained, foreknew (foreknows) and predestines "all" and I mean "all" the will of light (Christ) and the will of dark (Satan), he even predestined both the Son (Christ) our God, and the enemy... Jesus Christ is now equal to and with the Father, and (now) Knows, all that he knows, but did not always, like as our God from the beginning and in the OT...

Our control is an illusion, but, since and because we do not know, and only the Father alone does, we have to proceed as if we do have a choice, ultimately, were not here so much as to actually make the choices, but to understand "why" we made the choices that we did, or do...

God already knew that Paul and Silas were going to be in prison and start singing in that moment, and prearranged the earthquake according to that, way, way ahead of time... The big question is why they personally, specifically chose to do that, when others did not...

 

[zoidar]

Our control is an illusion, but, since and because we do not know, and only the Father alone does, we have to proceed as if we do have a choice, ultimately, were not here so much as to actually make the choices, but to understand "why" we made the choices that we did, or do...

I will go with the feeling that I have a choice. I don't have to do what I want to do, I choose. To me, to not have a choice, would be to take away the responsibilty of sin and also make a punishment for my sins unjust.

 

[Neogaia777]

I will go with the feeling that I have a choice. I don't have to do what I want to do, I choose. To me, to not have a choice, would be to take away the responsibilty of sin and also make a punishment for my sins unjust.

You have to believe that your in control of your own life and destiny to not sin...? Interesting...? You don't see the wisdom behind not sinning? There is no punishment for our sins, except the (should be fully) expected fate that comes from remaining in them...

 

[zoidar]

You have to believe that your in control of your own life and destiny to not sin...? Interesting...? You don't see the wisdom behind not sinning? There is no punishment for our sins, except the (should be fully) expected fate that comes from remaining in them...

True, no one can live fully without sinning. But we can often choose not to sin, live in sin or turn away from sin. I see your point though, that we are also held responsible for sins we can't do anything about. Even so choosing sin is much worse than sinning without being able to do anything about it.

All sins have to be punished, that is the the law of God. Jesus took that punishment. Either you trust in him taking that punishment or you take that punishment yourself. Even so, you are responsible when you choose to sin and will suffer consequences. If the sin is grave, your heart will change, become dark and hard, you can even lose faith. That happend to David when he sinned against God sending Bat-Seba's husband to a certain death. God almost took David's salvation, his faith and the holy Spirit from him. Was that a choice David made or God's choice? If it was God's choice how could David be held responsible?

Ps 51:3-4
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight,

Ps 51:10-12
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation

 

[Neogaia777]

True, no one can live fully without sinning. But we can often choose not to sin, live in sin or turn away from sin. I see your point though, that we are also held responsible for sins we can't do anything about. Even so choosing sin is much worse than sinning without being able to do anything about it.

All sins have to be punished, that is the the law of God. Jesus took that punishment. Either you trust in him taking that punishment or you take that punishment yourself. Even so, you are responsible when you choose to sin and will suffer consequences. If the sin is grave, your heart will change, become dark and hard, you can even lose faith. That happend to David when he sinned against God sending Bat-Seba's husband to a certain death. God almost took David's salvation, his faith and the holy Spirit from him. Was that a choice David made or God's choice? If it was God's choice how could David be held responsible?

Ps 51:3-4
For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight,

Ps 51:10-12
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation

I believe God the Father, already knew David was going to do what he did, and God the Father, knew that if he showed David his displeasure, he would repent, God the Father knew all of it, But, for God the Son, it could have gone either way, and God used it to draw David into a closer relationship with him...

I believe David's repentance is what separated him from others that God didn't choose, David's sincere straight from the heart repentance, his humbling and even humiliating himself in order to attain that, Godly level of repentance, even though God foreordained and predestined it all (God, The Son up to that choice point), and created him that way, there was one thing, one thing in God, the Sons eyes, that separated him from the rest of the pack in God, the Son's eyes, and the only one true choice in God, the Son's eyes, that was his repentance, and the level of David's repentance, made God the Son fall in love with David, and call him "A man after his own heart" the heart of God, the Son, or YHWH...

The Father knew all though, and knows all, and there are no real choices for us to him, but not so with God, the Son, our God... There is only one choice for us with God the Son, and that choice is associated with our repentance...

When getting into these matters about predestination, your almost forced to make a distinction between the God, the Father, and God, the Son, our God YHWH...

 

[zoidar]

God the Father knew all of it, But, for God the Son, it could have gone either way, and God used it to draw David into a closer relationship with him...

I believe also that God knew all about it, and that God used it to draw David closer. I don't believe that God wanted David to sin, but when he did God used it. God sometimes let evil happen for a bigger purpose, like allowing his Son to be nailed to the cross, which God turned into the biggest blessing.

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe also that God knew all about it, and that God used it to draw David closer. I don't believe that God wanted David to sin, but when he did God used it. God sometimes let evil happen for a bigger purpose, like allowing his Son to be nailed to the cross, which God turned into the biggest blessing.

Yes! Exactly! That's our awesome God... But, some just don't understand it/that, it kinda goes beyond the "normal" sphere of comprehension...

God Bless!

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.

John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.

Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

vs


2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

and

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.

All of humanity is predestined to return to God.
God will call us back several times to the one true path of Him.
Ppl veer off the path by choice.
All were predestined to enter Heaven.
Not all make it....via choice.

 

[zoidar]

I'll stop here and wait for your answers, because some of them will affect how I answer the rest of your questions below.

Are you working on the answers St Worm2 ?