Predestination

[fhansen]

Very nice sincere people are one thing, spirit led are another.

They all sincerely maintain they're spirit-led.

fhansen, JW's cannot be used, they are not Christian. Another things is they re-wrote the scriptures, "The New World Translations Of The Holy Scriptures," is their bible. They consider Lucifer and Jesus brothers. They do not believe Jesus is God.
etc...etc...
I though you would have known this.

I do know this but their theology is really just an offspring of the sola scriptura doctrine. In fact, they use the same verses as Arius did to support certain views. And they used the KJV long before they rewrote scripture, believing they, like everyone else believes, were interpreting it just fine.

The Christian church disagrees with you.

Which Christian church?-many of them disagree with each other over the meaning of of scripture, all the while agreeing on one thing-that scripture's the inspired word of God!

 

[Foghorn]

They all sincerely maintain they're spirit-led.

I do know this but their theology is really just an offspring of the sola scriptura doctrine. In fact, they use the same verses as Arius did to support certain views. And they used the KJV long before they rewrote scripture, believing they, like everyone else believes, were interpreting it just fine.

Which Christian church?-many of them disagree with each other over the meaning of of scripture, all the while agreeing on one thing-that scripture's the inspired word of God!

Thanks for your reply. Guess we have to agree to disagree here.

Lets get back on topic?

 

[fhansen]

Thanks for your reply. Guess we have to agree to disagree here.

Lets get back on topic?

OK

 

[Johnnz]

There are at least four different views held on predestination by Christian scholars. Thus, there will be no agreement here over which one is 'correct'. It's an issue on which we need to differ in humility and grace.

John
NZ

 

[Ronald]

Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives? And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

As it says, we are prestined to be saved, [FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]elect according to the[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]
[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]foreknowledge of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]"A man plans his heart but God directs his steps".[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]He may have a path of significance for some like He paved for the prophets. But us common folk, who just want to live simply, there are no big carved out paths, you choose your own; but He does orchestrate the events and people that come into our lives who lead us to the moment of salvation. I always said, He orders the significant things that matter and allows for our blonders ...He factors those in for a purpose. He is Sovereign! If he let us go unattended for one day, the devil might destroy us before we reached that moment, so know that He is close by and in control.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]I know some may say that the foreknowledge isn't why He chose you or why He didn't. But what other reason would He have, other than to ordain a certain task through someone like Judas or Pharoah for a purpose. They really didn't have much choice, pawns for a purpose. He makes some pots for planting beautiful flowers and some cracked pots for a purpose to show His glory. And we need to understand evil so we can appreciate what good is and the attributes of God. I''m glad I'm not a cracked pot! Does He get angry at a cracked pot when it leaks and then smashes it in anger? Maybe some are annihilated after their purpose is fulfilled? [/FONT]

[/FONT]

 

[eachallberg]

...Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives?

Yes, I believe all paths.

...if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

I think everyone is predestined, God knows all.

Originally Posted by Baam

Jesus chose everyone to be saved.
​

Would you please show us this in scripture? Thanks.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
(John 3:17)

Everyone in the world is sick and everyone needs a doctor.
Do you know what I mean?

Peace.

 

[98cwitr]

We're not at fault if God created us to be that way and we had no choice in the matter. He's the only one who could be at fault in that case!

Wrong. We have all sinned. WE. Get it?!

 

[98cwitr]

That's right. We all deserve hell! But God, in His mercy, through grace decided to save some from the world.

How could He do such a thing!!!!!

Amen brother!

2 Corinthians 12:5
I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

 

[fhansen]

Wrong. We have all sinned. WE. Get it?!

Guess not-your statement amounted to saying absolutely nothing. Of course we sin. But if ones' theology says we have no choice but to sin-how can we really be culpable? Now if I do have a choice-and I sin-then I would deserve whatever punishment a just God deems appropriate. If humans have no choice then God is responsible for sin-an evil nasty little god.

 

[98cwitr]

Guess not-your statement amounted to saying absolutely nothing. Of course we sin. But if ones' theology says we have no choice but to sin-how can we really be culpable? Now if I dohave a choice-and I sin-then I would deserve whatever punishment a just God deems appropriate. If humans have no choice then God is responsible for sin-an evil nasty little god.

You're applying your own theology upon God...can't you see that He created us in Omniscience? With all the knowledge of sin that we would perform in our lives? That some of us would be redeemed through the blessing of Spirit and faith in Christ?

Can you conceptualize the Omniscience of God?

Did you read Romans 9?

 

[Johnnz]

You're applying your own theology upon God...can't you see that He created us in Omniscience? With all the knowledge of sin that we would perform in our lives? That some of us would be redeemed through the blessing of Spirit and faith in Christ?

As are you. And yours has basic contradiction inherent in it, a good, just, God dealing a bad hand to some and holding them accountable for eternity for a choice that was not theirs to make in the first place.

Are you aware that none of the omni's are in the Bible. They are philosophical constructs imposed onto some scriptures to give a theological explanation of various verses. But maybe that was never meant to be. Maybe we should just accept God knows a lot more than we do, which was pretty much what the Biblical authors were saying.

John
NZ

 

[fhansen]

That's right. We all deserve hell! But God, in His mercy, through grace decided to save some from the world.

How could He do such a thing!!!!!

I think we can do better at grasping who God is. God is not like us. Compared to Him we tend to be vindictive, petty, self-righteous, vengeful, etc. Yes, we aren't who God created us to be-we're out of sync with nature -with our own God-given natures. God, OTOH, is patient, kind, long-suffering, merciful, just, humble, and, most of all, God is love, love personified, love on an infinitely grand and magnificent, take-your-breath-away scale. Now with all this in mind we need to seriously ask ourselves a simple question, do we really, truly deserve eternal torment? Are most of us really that bad? I know one thing, even if we are, my God doesn't want us to remain that way-He desires none to perish-He wants only the best for mankind-if we will.

 

[fhansen]

Can you conceptualize the Omniscience of God?

Suppose I'd might have to be God to do that.

 

[Albion]

I think we can do better at grasping who God is. God is not like us. Compared to Him we tend to be vindictive, petty, self-righteous, vengeful, etc. Yes, we aren't who God created us to be-we're out of sync with nature -with our own God-given natures. God, OTOH, is patient, kind, long-suffering, merciful, just, humble, and, most of all, God is love

I don't care for it when a poster accuses another of having used a "circular argument," but what I've just read looks like a good example of one. First you say that we mortals have our own ways that are not God's, and then you conclude that God must live up to...what? Why, the thinking and emotional standards of us mortals, of course. .

 

[fhansen]

[/I]

I don't care for it when a poster accuses another of having used a "circular argument," but what I've just read looks like a good example of one. First you say that we mortals have our own ways that are not God's, and then you conclude that God must live up to...what? Why, the thinking and emotional standards of us mortals, of course. .

Was there a logical thought in there somewhere? God tells us what the standards are-that's what revelation is all about! We don't need to make them up. He, Himself, is the standard and the greatest commandments sum up what He wants for us.

 

[fhansen]

You're applying your own theology upon God...can't you see that He created us in Omniscience? With all the knowledge of sin that we would perform in our lives? That some of us would be redeemed through the blessing of Spirit and faith in Christ?

Can you conceptualize the Omniscience of God?

Did you read Romans 9?

If what you are saying is that, existing outside of time and knowing all that will ever occur on earth, God knows our free choices in advance and "predestines" based on that, this I can agree with.

 

[Albion]

Was there a logical thought in there somewhere?

Good grief, man. If you can't keep up, don't write about it.

On the one hand, you say God's standards are not our standards, and then you argue that he must do what you theorize because that's what we humans would expect of a god.

 

[squint]

Jesus taught predestination.

You can't turn a bad tree into a good tree and vice versa. They are what they are.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel with the full intention that His Words came to them first, as their lineage was predestined from the beginning to bring Him, God in Flesh as Word/Bread/Life to the world.

Paul also taught this, that salvation is of the JEWS first. Why? Because they are 'predestined' to be saved.

The salvation of all of Israel is a foregone conclusion. Paul again openly taught a MYSTERY, that 'all of Israel' shall be saved. Even enemies, yes, enemies of the Gospel who were made such for 'our sakes' and made so, predestined unto blindness/deafness for the sake of believing Gentiles.

This salvation of them, of all of Israel is NOT predicated on their 'correct beliefs' or 'correct doctrines.' The fact that all of them shall be saved confirms predestination REGARDLESS of their WORKS or their WAYS. And again, this fact drives a Mack Truck hole in many 'theories' about 'how God really works.' It puts a dent in all Calvin based forms of predestination based on faith, because they are saved without same. And it puts a bigger hole in the freewill camps, because their wills are, and Paul even uses the term ARE enemies, present tense, of the Gospel. So they are even saved apart from their own wills and actions.

A few of these facts of MANY such facts are laid out in my post in this thread, #45:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7659674-5/#post60613323

In short, ALL vessels of honor are predestined to be saved. Nothing can change that fact.

And all vessels of dishonor were made by God to demonstrate HIS Eternal Mercy as a first hand experience for all vessels of honor. When God completes His Uses of the vessels of dishonor which He presently 'tolerates' He will utterly destroy them forever.

This makes Salvation of God in Christ UNmerited UNearned Grace and superabundant Divine Mercy, all of Him, as such eternal measures can only come from The Eternal One.

On the basis of Gods Sufficiency, there should be GREAT confidence of faith. God has also chosen to 'try' such faith for us who believe. We are 'early' partakers.

If anyone would like to engage the fact of the post noted, I am always happy to share His Good News. Even in the face of the resistance that tries my own faith, as God has shown me in His Words.

The understanding is a threat to no believer, but the source of very great joy and present HOPE which I share.

enjoy!

squint

 

[fhansen]

Good grief, man. If you can't keep up, don't write about it.

On the one hand, you say God's standards are not our standards, and then you argue that he must do what you theorize because that's what we humans would expect of a god.

Look, you're right I'm having a really hard time keeping up with your superior abilities here. In fact, I utterly fail to see where you've made a single rational statement. So why don't you tell me how I argued anything based on what we humans would expect a god to do. God and His will can be known, to the extent we're capable and to the extent He reveals Himself to us. That's why He came. Our job is to grow in that knoweldge and understanding.

 

[Albion]

Look, you're right I'm having a really hard time keeping up with your superior abilities here. In fact, I utterly fail to see where you've made a single rational statement.

Not a single rational statement, huh?

So why don't you tell me how I argued anything based on what we humans would expect a god to do.

Strictly speaking, your unwillingness to let God be God is not rational. It defies reason. But I don't traffic in gratuitous insults; I just don't see how you can not appreciate that you're saying, on the one hand, that God can't predestine people because he's not moved by our fallen standards of behavior...and follow that up by saying that what he must do instead is love as we define it.

Having said that, keep in mind that if we were all left to earn salvation by living up to the demands of the Law or, for that matter, of perfect Love, none of us would make it. So if God predestines EVEN ONE PERSON to eternal salvation, he's showing Love to that one. We may say that this is unfair, but that's fairness as we mortals living in a democratic society in the 21st century define fairness.