Predestination

[squint]

Could you point out their teachings and then point out and show the flaws and errors please?

Personally I do not see your understanding as scriptural. I believe Calvin's is accurate with scripture. Could you show me how Calvin is flawed, I truly would like to know.

If you see the flaws you really should point them out and show everyone, it's very important and an obligation, right?

Observations made. Scriptures cited.

You are welcome to engage if you can.

s

 

[Albion]

Doesn't do much good if we don't interpret it right.

Before we interpret, we need to know what to interpret. Isn't that true?

If I may answer my own question, it's "yes." Neither of us would, for instance, attempt to decide if Obamacare is legal by reading up on and interpreting the Geneva Accords or the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. We'd instead consult the US Constitution, would we not?

It's the same with the Word of God when we are dealing with Christian doctrine.

 

[fhansen]

Before we interpret, we need to know what to interpret. Isn't that true?

If I may answer my own question, it's "yes." Neither of us would, for instance, attempt to decide if Obamacare is legal by reading up on and interpreting the Geneva Accords or the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. We'd instead consult the US Constitution, would we not?

It's the same with the Word of God when we are dealing with Christian doctrine.

How can we decide if a book is worth anything unless we understand what it means? Any claim to authority must be questioned and weighed seriously, whether a book, an institution, a person, or group of persons.

 

[Albion]

How can we decide if a book is worth anything unless we understand what it means?

Nope. I'd say without hesitation that that is putting the cart before the horse. If you want to read up on any subject, you naturally go to the book that has a worldwide reputation for knowing what's what in that particular field. You may take something from your reading of it that your neighbor does not, but that's not the fault of the book.

 

[fhansen]

Nope. I'd say without hesitation that that is putting the cart before the horse. If you want to read up on any subject, you naturally go to the book that has a worldwide reputation for knowing what's what in that particular field. You may take something from your reading of it that your neighbor does not, but that's not the fault of the book.

But if the book can't guarantee which of you-your neighbor or yourself- has the correct interpretation, it isn't worth much, regardless of how many people pay lip service to its relevancy. Even the Constitution must be interpreted and understood correctly; generally the Supreme Court is relied on to perform this task in various court decisions.

 

[Albion]

But if the book can't guarantee which of you-your neighbor or yourself- has the correct interpretation, it isn't worth much, regardless of how many people pay lip service to its relevancy.

There's no logical reason to say that. The book tells its message. Let's say it's about fishing. All you are focusing on is a mistaken interpretation by one or a number of readers but not necessarily all. So your contention is not valid. Meanwhile, you haven't shown us why a person seeking to know about fishing techniques and tackle would do better to read the back of the cereal box in his kitchen cabinet instead.

 

[fhansen]

There's no logical reason to say that. The book tells its message. Let's say it's about fishing. All you are focusing on is a mistaken interpretation by one or a number of readers but not necessarily all. So your contention is not valid. Meanwhile, you haven't shown us why a person seeking to know about fishing techniques and tackle would do better to read the back of the cereal box in his kitchen cabinet instead.

A book purporting to tell us about God and supernatural truths is a far cry different than one telling us about fishing-and there are a lot of different books out there all vying for the title (even the Constitution is a far cry different for that matter or else we wouldn't have much controversy over it-ending up in court). To even determine that our bible is the right one, is, in the end, a subjective process if we're honest. And then who-which "pope"- you, me, Luther, Calvin -can say which interpretation of it is the 'mistaken interpretation'? The fact that we all point to someone else as having the wrong one doesn't solve the problem as far as I can see.

 

[Albion]

A book purporting to tell us about God and supernatural truths is a far cry different than one telling us about fishing

It was an analogy.

I certainly would agree that the word of God is about as authoritative as you can get. What I'm interested in is why anyone would opt for something that is obviously of lesser quality instead. Just because some people might misinterpret the word of God....it's still the word of God! And don't forget that every other source that can be substituted for Scripture is subject to diverse interpretations, too. So, in fact, there is no substitute for the Bible.

To even determine that our bible is the right one, is, in the end, a subjective process if we're honest.

There are basically two versions and the difference between them is slight. That's a lot less difficult than sorting through the various opinions and legends that make up the alternative to the Bible--that which is called Tradition.

And as many churches as you have that follow Tradition, that's how many different interpretations of it that exist. By your own standard, then, they can't be trusted. I'd like you to respond to this, because when it's presented to a Catholic he usually tries to change the subject.

Ad then who-which "pope"- you, me, Luther, Calvin -can say which interpretation of it is the 'mistaken interpretation'?

Who can say which "pope" is right when it comes to interpretations, mistaken or otherwise, of Tradition? In the end, men can mistake anything--and that doesn't prove that some don't get it right. So if everything is even on that account, wouldn't we be better off with the word of God than with the words of Men?

 

[elopez]

??

Again predestination is only relevant to salvation, not to damnation. God thus does not predestine souls to Hell.

 

[Albion]

Again predestination is only relevant to salvation, not to damnation. God thus does not predestine souls to Hell.

OK. That's what most predestinarians believe. It was this sentence that left me unsure of the meaning: "The reprobate is the result of God electing some which stems from the desire for sin."

 

[Going Merry]

So, I was reading through Ephesians last night and I found this passage:
" In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment —to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

So I followed my bible's footnotes, and found myself in Romans 8:29-30:
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

So this raises the question of predestination. Does God predestine us to certain paths in our lives? And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

He pre-destined the world to salvation in Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." To believe He selectively chose people to be saved over others is silly. He came for everyone so that anyone who repents and believes in the truth will be saved. Since the gift is to all who believe. Even though he blotted out everyones sins not everyone believes in the good news.

 

[Going Merry]

Well...I would for one. God is Sovereign over all things...over the entire world. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

Tyrant? Have you read Revelations? God is going to make the entire world new one day...with no more death or pain and all people will be good (Children of God) for eternity! How is it that God is tyrant if He will do such a great thing?

If you reject personal predestination then you have to reject the following verses:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

interpretation really.
Jesus chose everyone to be saved.

 

[Foghorn]

It should be obvious. Your answer in post #35 to my not agreeing with your theology was "Read the scriptures. Sola scriptura!",

Ok.

and yet I'll tell you that very sincere people,

Very nice sincere people are one thing, spirit led are another.

including JWs,

fhansen, JW's cannot be used, they are not Christian. Another things is they re-wrote the scriptures, "The New World Translations Of The Holy Scriptures," is their bible. They consider Lucifer and Jesus brothers. They do not believe Jesus is God.
etc...etc...
I though you would have known this.

who think they're the true Christians by reasoning from scripture alone, interpret scripture in significantly different ways.

See above.

Scripture, alone, is simply inadequate as an authority because, as the written word, it can't interpret itself or tell you what it means to say.

The Christian church disagrees with you.

 

[Foghorn]

How can we decide if a book is worth anything unless we understand what it means? Any claim to authority must be questioned and weighed seriously, whether a book, an institution, a person, or group of persons.

Off topic.

 

[Foghorn]

Again predestination is only relevant to salvation, not to damnation. God thus does not predestine souls to Hell.

Luckily your opinion does not make it true.

 

[Foghorn]

He pre-destined the world to salvation in Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:2 says "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." To believe He selectively chose people to be saved over others is silly.

You believe God's word is silly? God back and read posts, 38-39. Deny it if you like, that's your choice, lots of people deny the truth in scripture.

He came for everyone so that anyone who repents and believes in the truth will be saved.

I don't recall this verse being anywhere in scripture. Could you point it out please? Thanks.

Since the gift is to all who believe. Even though he blotted out everyones sins not everyone believes in the good news.

If, by the blood of Christ, everyone's sins were blotted out, then no one would go to hell. Do you realize what your saying?

 

[Foghorn]

Jesus chose everyone to be saved.

Would you please show us this in scripture? Thanks.

 

[Johnnz]

Originally Posted by Baam

Jesus chose everyone to be saved.
​

Would you please show us this in scripture? Thanks.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

2 Peter 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If we accept some are not chosen then we have the Jesus dying for all sins, and God patiently desiring all to come to Him, nevertheless He has chosen some not to. I find that rather odd.

John
NZ

 

[elopez]

Luckily your opinion does not make it true.

It's not really my opinion as much as it is from Scripture. When the Bible speaks of predestination it is correlated to salvation.

 

[Foghorn]

Originally Posted by Foghorn

Curious, did you look at my posts #'s 38-39?

Does your bible contain those verses?​

Sure, around 10 verses out of over 30,000. Here’s one more:

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Pet 3:16

Now I don’t intend the message there as harshly as Peter seemed to put it but between those verses and the narrative about the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 I think it should be clear that scripture, which was never intended as a theological handbook or catechism, isn’t always so perfectly clear. But here’s another one:

Just because you throw that verse in there does not help your case. Respectfully, I think it is you who is distorting scripture, I do not believe you mean to do it however, I think sometimes people read God's word with preconceived ideas.

2 Pet 1:10-11

Now for what possible reason would one need to confirm or make their election sure, if almighty God, Himself, alone does the electing?

Let me share the meaning with you...
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


The confirming is not in the calling and election of itself, which has all its virtue and subsistence in God Himself and from His pleasure, see Romans 9:11, 16. But it is in the feeling, certainty, and apprehension, which the believer ought to have of it. A believer can fight on freely, sin has no power over them and victory is assured (please, read closely). You see, we are not under law, but under grace (Romans 6:14), sin has no dominion over a regenerate believer. Those who are not saved are bound by the law, without any help! ..... The believer (born again) however, with the command to live a holy life, there is an internal power and strength granted which fulfills in us (believers) what is commanded. If we, on our own part, willing cooperate and make an effort, which is the desire and therefore descriptive of a believer. I hope this does not sound strange to you, after all scripture teaches this: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13. & equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. Heb 13:21.
Its a confirmation of our adoption. What a blessed assurance!

But these verses actually dovetail nicely with the other myriad scripture verses that tell us what we must do: to persevere in doing good, be vigilant, keep oil in ones lamp, invest ones talents, be holy, be perfect, strive as Paul does to attain eternal life, feed the poor, clothe the naked, work out ones salvation, continue to live in the Spirit, refrain from sin, etc, etc., in most cases with dire consequences-the loss of the Kingdom-for those who don’t. Why such admonishments if it’s already a done deal -if one is already elected/predestined unto eternal life-and can know that for certain?

Again, it is descriptive of a believer (not prescriptive), after all "a tree is known by it's fruit."

This about it for a second, concerning fruit. Consider an apple tree, does a healthy apple tree try to produce apples, or does it naturally produce apples?