Predestination

[fhansen]

We are ALL at fault man! Please please please go read all of Romans 9...right now!

We're not at fault if God created us to be that way and we had no choice in the matter. He's the only one who could be at fault in that case!

 

[Jipsah]

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment?

If God in fact creates some beings for eternal torment, then it matters not a pin whether or not anyone wants to live with Him. It's kinda like saying "Who wants to live in a universe where some people are doomed to live in misery?" or "Who wants to live in a heliocentric solar system?" It is, as the saying goes, what it is.

Guess we have no choice anyway???

Like the choices you have over your height, gender, IQ, race, etc.? And what if the only choice is, in your case, Hobson's choice? Due to cultural programming, inaction, indecision, lack of information (or misinformation), or due to meanness and/or boneheadedness, you're gonna take the default and be destroyed. Wouldn't you rather have that "tyrant" God say, "No, dummy, not there, here."

Here's the trick. "Free will" means a parent allows his kid to play in the traffic and be run over because snatching the little crumb cruncher out from in front of that Econoline van would intrude on the little darlings freedom of choice. Me, I prefer a parent who hauls the kid out from in front of the juggernaut even if the little twit is howling that it isn't fair and that he really wanted to play with the shiny car.

Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

It's the eternal torment part that needs to be examined more closely.

 

[Jipsah]

That's one good reason to reject the traditional teaching of individual predestination. God becomes an ogre.

It's the doctrine of eternal torment that makes God into an ogre.

 

[Albion]

We're not at fault if God created us to be that way and we had no choice in the matter. He's the only one who could be at fault in that case!

Wait a mo. We are the sinners; God didn't create Man for sin. What kind of Christian theology is that?

 

[Foghorn]

But who would want to live with a God who creates some beings for eternal torment?

Who? The ones He predestines to salvation, of course.

Guess we have no choice anyway??? Destined for hell or destined to live with a tyrant? Not much of a choice anyway.

This is an example when someone cannot have it their way, they call God tyrant.

Just sayin...

 

[Foghorn]

That's one good reason to reject the traditional teaching of individual predestination. God becomes an ogre.

John
NZ

No..............God only becomes an Ogre in peoples minds because they cannot accept the truth. If God does not do things the way they think it should be, God's and ogre.

Just sayin...

 

[fhansen]

Like the choices you have over your height, gender, IQ, race, etc.?

No, like moral choices.

Wouldn't you rather have that "tyrant" God say, "No, dummy, not there, here."

Not if he's also saying to someone else, 'sorry dummy, there, not here.'

Here's the trick. "Free will" means a parent allows his kid to play in the traffic and be run over because snatching the little crumb cruncher out from in front of that Econoline van would intrude on the little darlings freedom of choice. Me, I prefer a parent who hauls the kid out from in front of the juggernaut even if the little twit is howling that it isn't fair and that he really wanted to play with the shiny car.

Free will means that a mature person has the choice, somewhere between now and eternity, to decide for themselves between good and evil, heaven or hell, life or death, God or no God. Right now we exist in a state between heaven and hell-we experience-or know- both good and evil in this life. We simply orient ourselves towards one or the other, by the decisons we make and the way we live our lives.

It's the eternal torment part that needs to be examined more closely.

Yes, only anihilationsim or universal salvation can work with a doctrine of determinism IMO, if we're to end up with a God of justice, love, and mercy.

 

[Foghorn]

Yes, but nothing but pain for the rest! And it would be totally of His doing and none of their own fault!

So, are you saying God is doing it the wrong way? He has no right?

 

[Foghorn]

We are ALL at fault man! Please please please go read all of Romans 9...right now!

That's right. We all deserve hell! But God, in His mercy, through grace decided to save some from the world.

How could He do such a thing!!!!!

 

[fhansen]

Who? The ones He predestines to salvation, of course.

This is an example when someone cannot have it their way, they call God tyrant.

Just sayin...

No, its an example of someone who recognizes what justice is...because his Creator built him that way.

 

[Foghorn]

No buts. It's about sonship, not which ones.

John
NZ

That's your opinion.

 

[fhansen]

So, are you saying God is doing it the wrong way? He has no right?

No, I'm saying He's doing it right-and you're think'in of it wrong.

 

[Foghorn]

Wait a mo. We are the sinners; God didn't create Man for sin. What kind of Christian theology is that?

Itching ear Theology.

 

[Foghorn]

No, its an example of someone who recognizes what justice is...because his Creator built him that way.

If you understood what justice was, you wouldn't say that.

Just sayin...


EDIT} If you understood what justice was, and who deserves it, you wouldn't say that.

 

[Foghorn]

No, I'm saying He's doing it right-and you're think'in of it wrong.

Read the scriptures. Sola scriptura!

 

[LachMck]

This is good. The reason I started this was to see if people actually think about the hard issues. Too many Christians I know just blindly follow everything, and take every word as completely literal.
Plus I just like to stir the pot.

 

[Foghorn]

This is good. The reason I started this was to see if people actually think about the hard issues. Too many Christians I know just blindly follow everything

Yep, I agree!

 

[Foghorn]

God predestines salvation. Beyond that I see nothing else predestined.

You see nothing else? Ill help you out, at the end of this reply.

In other words, predestination is only relevant to salvation. We can say that takes us on a certain path but that doesn't necessarily mean everything is predestined.

God does not predestine those others to punishment. The reprobate is the result of God electing some which stems from the desire for sin.

For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matt 22:14.

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matt 24:22.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Rom 8:30, 33.

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Tim 1:9.

This should be enough.

To not see individual predestination one would either have to be blind or in denial.
Just sayin...

 

[Foghorn]

And if he predestines some to be in the likeness of the Son, i.e to follow him, what about those who he does not predestine to be in that same likeness?

I'll let scripture answer.


And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 2 Cor 4:3.

and “A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. 1 Peter 2:8.


But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 2 peter 2:12.


For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 4.



The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. Rev 17:8.




That should be enough.

 

[fhansen]

If you understood what justice was, you wouldn't say that.

Just sayin...


EDIT} If you understood what justice was, and who deserves it, you wouldn't say that.

OK, so splain to me how, if God created all men sinful, it would be just for Him to send anyone to hell-that's eternal torment- for being sinful? What kind of justice is this that I don't understand?