Predestination

[chestertonrules]

That isn't the question I asked you.

I answered this question:

How many people do you know who say that they have heard the word of God and believe it to be truly of God offering them life after death...but they just don't care to accept the gift of eternal bliss that God offers, preferring instead to reject it?

They believe in God and Jesus but are too busy with their own earthly concerns to choose a God centered life.

 

[Albion]

I answered this question:



They believe in God and Jesus but are too busy with their own earthly concerns to choose a God centered life.

You typed out something, but it wasn't related to what I asked you. Is that better?

We agree on the question. Here it is:

How many people do you know who say that they have heard the word of God and believe it to be truly of God offering them life after death...but they just don't care to accept the gift of eternal bliss that God offers, preferring instead to reject it?

So, how many do you know who say that they believe the Bible is true and of God but they do not want to accept the offer of eternal life that it holds out to them through Christ?

I did not ask how many people 1) believe in a God or 2) how many believe the Bible but don't act like it.

Then, how many people do you know who simply aren't convinced that the Bible is what it purports to be? ("spiritual" people but not believers, atheists, agnostics, totally secular types, members of other religions, etc.)

 

[chestertonrules]

You typed out something, but it wasn't related to what I asked you. Is that better?

We agree on the question. Here it is:



So, how many do you know who say that they believe the Bible is true and of God but they do not want to accept the offer of eternal life that it holds out to them through Christ?

I did not ask how many people 1) believe in a God or 2) how many believe the Bible but don't act like it.

Then, how many people do you know who simply aren't convinced that the Bible is what it purports to be? ("spiritual" people but not believers, atheists, agnostics, totally secular types, members of other religions, etc.)

I answered the question perfectly, you just don't like the answer.

I also know many people who are overweight. They know that eating junk food is unhealthy, but they do it anyway.

It is the same thing.

We are free to accept or reject God's grace.

 

[Hammster]

I answered the question perfectly, you just don't like the answer.



I also know many people who are overweight. They know that eating junk food is unhealthy, but they do it anyway.



It is the same thing.



We are free to accept or reject God's grace.

Is rejecting God's grace a sin?

 

[chestertonrules]

Is rejecting God's grace a sin?

It leads to sin.

We can only avoid sin by accepting God's grace.

 

[Albion]

I answered the question perfectly, you just don't like the answer.

I also know many people who are overweight. They know that eating junk food is unhealthy, but they do it anyway.

It is the same thing.

We are free to accept or reject God's grace.

LOL Well, I do understand. If you were to answer the question, you'd be expoding your theory about freewill and showing it to be untenable.

People do not just "choose" to reject Christ. They have no means by which to know--in a natural, human sense--whether it's true or not. The Bible is thought by far more people to be unprovable or a myth than people who say that they believe it but don't want to accept God's grace anyway. In fact, I don't know a single person who says that he believes the Bible to be what it claims to be but still would rather not be saved. Neither do you know such a person, whether or not you'll admit it.

What this illustrates is that it is ridiculously untrue that people choose against grace. They don't know enough to accept it! That's the real situation.

They don't know enough about the unfathomable things of God in order to accept the grace that gives faith and so be saved...UNLESS, that is, they are allowed by God to have their eyes opened. If that doesn't happen (predestination), they are unable to be moved by the Gospel.

 

[chestertonrules]

LOL Well, I do understand. If you were to answer the question, you'd be expoding your theory about freewill and showing it to be untenable.

People do not just "choose" to reject Christ. .

Yes they do.

Every day in every nation on earth.

I don't recommend it.

Eze. 33

11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!


Isaiah 55

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.


1 Tim 2

3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Hammster]

It leads to sin.



We can only avoid sin by accepting God's grace.

So if rejecting God's grace isn't a sin, then we know that they aren't sent to Hell for that. And since Christ allegedly died for all sin, we know that people aren't sent to Hell for their sin. What's left to send them to Hell for?

 

[Hammster]

Yes they do.



Every day in every nation on earth.



I don't recommend it.



Eze. 33



11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!





Isaiah 55



7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.





1 Tim 2



3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.





2 Peter 3



9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Those are great verses.

 

[chestertonrules]

Those are great verses.

I agree.

They expose Calvinism as contrary to the bible.

 

[chestertonrules]

So if rejecting God's grace isn't a sin, then we know that they aren't sent to Hell for that. And since Christ allegedly died for all sin, we know that people aren't sent to Hell for their sin. What's left to send them to Hell for?

We must repent to be forgiven.

God let's us decide, but he wants us to repent.

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Hammster]

I agree.



They expose Calvinism as contrary to the bible.

Not hardly.

 

[Hammster]

We must repent to be forgiven.



God let's us decide, but he wants us to repent.



2 Peter 3



9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Is not repenting of sin a sin, then?

 

[Albion]

I like this one--

"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Eph 2.8

 

[chestertonrules]

I like this one--

"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Eph 2.8

Absolutely.

We cannot be saved without God's grace.

We are in a burning building.

God's grace is the ladder to our window. We are lost without it.

Still, we must climb out the window onto the ladder and keep a good grip all the way to the ground.

 

[chestertonrules]

Is not repenting of sin a sin, then?

Repenting is a means of allowing God's forgiveness for sins.

Not repenting means we won't be forgiven.

 

[Tamara224]

Absolutely.

We cannot be saved without God's grace.

We are in a burning building.

God's grace is the ladder to our window. We are lost without it.

Still, we must climb out the window onto the ladder and keep a good grip all the way to the ground.

Grace is the fireman who throws us over his shoulder and carries us out of the burning building, more like.

 

[chestertonrules]

Grace is the fireman who throws us over his shoulder and carries us out of the burning building, more like.

I don't think so:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

Phill 3
Pressing on Toward the Goal

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

[Albion]

"...they follow me. I give them eternal life (Predestination/Election), and they shall never perish (Eternal Security/Once saved, always saved); no one can snatch them out of my hand. (OSAS)" John 10:27-28

 

[MamaZ]

Absolutely.

We cannot be saved without God's grace.

We are in a burning building.

God's grace is the ladder to our window. We are lost without it.

Still, we must climb out the window onto the ladder and keep a good grip all the way to the ground.

Can you describe what you believe Gods grace means?