Predestination

[Montalban]

In order for your sins to be forgiven you must repent.

Jesus atoned for the sins of all men, but not all men repent.

Some men reject the pull of the Holy Spirit.

That's a good point. If those that are already 'elect', would they need to accept God's gift? As they argue that they're already saved, regardless of what they do, then they wouldn't even have to accept God's gifts. God would just compel them to be saved, dragging them to him kicking and screaming

 

[chestertonrules]

That's a good point. If those that are already 'elect', would they need to accept God's gift? As they argue that they're already saved, regardless of what they do, then they wouldn't even have to accept God's gifts. God would just compel them to be saved, dragging them to him kicking and screaming

I guess that's what they mean by irresistible grace!

 

[chestertonrules]

Is it a sin that Christ's sacrifice would have covered?

The sacrifice of Jesus covers the sins of those who repent.

No repentence, no forgiveness.

 

[Montalban]

I guess that's what they mean by irresistible grace!

That's sounding more like how al-Lah works, than God.

It's also a throw-back to Zeus. Zeus used to sit up there on Olympus hurling thuderbolts at whomever he happened to think at that time deserved it, occasionally meddling in humanity - a bit like a person with a toy soldier collection, moving them about, playing games.

The Calvinistic idea of God removes God's love from God.

 

[Hammster]

The sacrifice of Jesus covers the sins of those who repent.

No repentence, no forgiveness.

Then you believe in limited atonement. Usually that is the last one to go when becoming a Calvinist. But you started there. Maybe there's hope.

 

[Hammster]

Replying that it's a straw-man doesn't make an argument

Just pointing out that it had already been addressed. More than once.

 

[boswd]

Then you believe in limited atonement. Usually that is the last one to go when becoming a Calvinist. But you started there. Maybe there's hope.

Doesn't Limited Atonement mean that Christ only died for ones Pre Chosen by God before birth. and not for all mankind?

Big difference

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't Limited Atonement mean that Christ only died for ones Pre Chosen by God before birth. and not for all mankind?

Big difference

Yep. And those who repent are those who are chosen. God grants repentance. It doesn't come from us. Ah, the sovereignty of God.

 

[chestertonrules]

Then you believe in limited atonement. Usually that is the last one to go when becoming a Calvinist. But you started there. Maybe there's hope.

The atonement is limited to those who repent, but all of us have access to this atonement.

You need to read the bible again without your dogma. I'm not being sarcastic. It's as if you are ignoring most of what you read.

 

[boswd]

Yep. And those who repent are those who are chosen. God grants repentance. It doesn't come from us. Ah, the sovereignty of God.

out of curiosity are you a 5 pt TULIP ? You seem to find room for Free Will in your beliefs.

Oh and nobody doesn't think God isn't Soverign talk about Strawman

 

[Hammster]

The atonement is limited to those who repent, but all of us have access to this atonement.

I will agree that the atonement is sufficient. But God knows that nobody, in their natural state, will seek Him. So, in His grace and mercy, chooses to save some (which He is under no obligation to do) and changes their heart so that they see the wickedness of their sin, and the greatness of His gift. Then they willing repent and are granted forgiveness.

You need to read the bible again without your dogma. I'm not being sarcastic. It's as if you are ignoring most of what you read.

Actually, my beliefs used to be similar to yours. I even argued for them on this forum. But I did start reading what scripture said, without a man-centered viewpoint, and it all made sense after that.

 

[chestertonrules]

I will agree that the atonement is sufficient. But God knows that nobody, in their natural state, will seek Him. So, in His grace and mercy, chooses to save some (which He is under no obligation to do) and changes their heart so that they see the wickedness of their sin, and the greatness of His gift. Then they willing repent and are granted forgiveness.

You consistently ignore crystal clear scripture.

God's grace reaches out to all men. Those who choose to accept God's grace and follow him will be saved. Those who reject God's grace will not.

It is not God's fault that someone goes to hell, it is the individuals.


Read these if you've never seen them before. You might be surprised what the bible tells us:

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  1 John 2:1-2

God has given all men sufficient grace for salvation.

 

[Hammster]

out of curiosity are you a 5 pt TULIP ? You seem to find room for Free Will in your beliefs.

Yep. 5 pointer. And there is always room for free will, or self will, in the reformed viewpoint. We just realize what man will do with his free will unless God intervenes.

Oh and nobody doesn't think God isn't Soverign talk about Strawman

Nope. Just pointing out that the reformed view has God sovereign over everything...even who gets saved.

 

[chestertonrules]

Nope. Just pointing out that the reformed view has God sovereign over everything...even who gets saved.

Wrong.

The reformed view claims that God is incapable of creating man with free will.

The reformed view turns God into a merciless robot manufacturer.

 

[Hammster]

You consistently ignore crystal clear scripture.

God's grace reaches out to all men. Those who choose to accept God's grace and follow him will be saved. Those who reject God's grace will not.

It is not God's fault that you go to hell, it is the individuals.


Read these if you've never seen them before. You might be surprised what the bible tells us:

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  
  John 12:31-32

• What is the context? Is it possible that Jesus meant all types of men? Especially when you look at John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  
  1Cor. 15:21-22

  If we are to take the second all, and make it applicable to all people, then you are left with universalism.

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

  Same problem as above. That is why context is important.

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  
  Rom 11:32

  Again, could 'all' mean Jews and Gentiles in general, or are you saying that all of Israel will be saved?

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  1 John 2:1-2

  Poor translation. NIV? Atoning sacrifice should be propitiation. But still, we are back to the question. If Christ is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people, and not repenting is a sin (since it was commanded), then for what are people in Hell being punished for? I thought it was for sin.

God has given all men sufficient grace for salvation.

You have yet to prove that.

 

[Hammster]

Wrong.

The reformed view claims that God is incapable of creating man with free will.

The reformed view turns God into a merciless robot manufacturer.

Quote your source. Or is this just your opinion?

 

[PeaceinJesus]

I'm not a big fan of predestination. It makes everything so much more complicated.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not a big fan of predestination. It makes everything so much more complicated.

I thought it actually simplified things.

 

[chestertonrules]

• What is the context? Is it possible that Jesus meant all types of men? Especially when you look at John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6 is Jesus talking about conditions before the resurrection. In John 12 he is describing what will happen after his resurrection when he will draw ALL MEN(not all kinds of men, as the Calvinist distortion claims) to himself.

• If we are to take the second all, and make it applicable to all people, then you are left with universalism.

Absolutely false. All men are made alive in Christ. We are now capable of accepting his grace and following him.

Same problem as above. That is why context is important.

Reading comprehension is also important, as you can see in the previous verse. Jesus LEADS ALL MEN to justification, he doesn't force them to follow.

• Again, could 'all' mean Jews and Gentiles in general, or are you saying that all of Israel will be saved?

All means all. Other than Jews and gentiles, what kind of people are you aware of.

• [*]

  [*]Poor translation. NIV? Atoning sacrifice should be propitiation. But still, we are back to the question. If Christ is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people, and not repenting is a sin (since it was commanded), then for what are people in Hell being punished for? I thought it was for sin.
  [*]

  

  
  [*]

Only sins for which you repent are forgiven. Repentence allows forgiveness.

You choose whether or not to repent. God doesn't force anyone to repent.

 

[chestertonrules]

Quote your source. Or is this just your


Reformers claim that man cannot be free to choose or accept God's grace because this would limit God's sovereignty.

Don't ask me to defend this view, that's your problem.