Predestination

[chestertonrules]

Good discussion

I'm inclined to think it's not that complicated, though. The opponents of Predestination have been set straight on this matter over and over again. They persist in misrepresenting the belief merely because it seems clever to call the Elect "automotons," "robots," and "puppets."

They do actually know (or at least I don't see how they don't) that with the single exception of one's eternal destination being determined in advance, the Elect and the Reprobates both make their free choices in everything else they do in life.

As if anything else matters.

We determine our eternal destiny.

We can't be saved without God's grace, but we can choose to accept it or reject it.

 

[AndOne]

As if anything else matters.

We determine our eternal destiny.

We can't be saved without God's grace, but we can choose to accept it or reject it.

Unfortunately nobody really chooses to accept it.

there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. - Romans 3:11

 

[Montalban]

The whole thing about salvation is God's eternal love, always offering his love. All we have to do is choose his love

 

[Tamara224]

Your analogy is completely false. The very idea of 'Free will' is about choosing God. It's not about doing something.

How is "choosing" not "doing"?

The very act of choosing God is an internal process. It therefore is not a matter of God forcing you to do something externally and you internally grumbling "I wish God wouldn't make me do this", because if, by using your analogy God forced you to love him, you wouldn't be internally grumbling "I wish God wouldn't make me love him", because you'd love him!

What you offer is a 'solution' that has more problems. God can't force us to both choose him and be able not to choose him, or God's force is not sufficient upon us.

God wants us to come to him freely.

I don't believe I ever said that God forces our choice. He does, however, force our circumstances, or, our options as it were.

The Bible says that "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."


The Bible also says "It is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose."

And:

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

These are all examples of God working on us from the inside, changing us at our core and effecting our decision making.

Can you think of even one example from the Bible of someone changing his/her own heart and coming to God freely on his own?

I can't. But I could be mistaken, feel free to show me.

Also, Jesus said: ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." And "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Enablement is an interesting concept, too. There can be no choice without power (ability). A blind man cannot choose to see. He is blind, he has not the ability to see, he is not enabled. A deaf man cannot choose to hear - it's simply not an option for him.

Without ability, there is no choice.

So, in essence, our "free" will only comes after God predestines, calls and enables. Before that (if there is a before) we do not have free will. So, in a sense, I guess you could say that only the elect truly have free will. Everyone else does not have the ability, is not enabled, to make any choice at all. A slave has no free will. And everyone without Christ is a slave to sin.

 

[Montalban]

How is "choosing" not "doing"?

That was in YOUR example
Doing something your mum said, but not choosing to agree with it. You created that dichotomy.

 

[MamaZ]

Can a dead man choose to live?

 

[Montalban]

If, after we die we continue on in another form - whether we are just 'the spirit' or not, then I think we'd still have a mind.

 

[cygnusx1]

If, after we die we continue on in another form - whether we are just 'the spirit' or not, then I think we'd still have a mind.

your missing the point , unless and until God renews us in Spirit (regeneration = new birth) we are all "dead in trespasses and sins " , dead to God , His loved and His light . dead men don't choose!

as it is written , " I was found by those who didn't seek me " .

who found God ? answer from scripture ; those who did NOT seek Him!

Isn't God good

 

[Montalban]

your (sic) missing the point , unless and until God renews us in Spirit (regeneration = new birth) we are all "dead in trespasses and sins " , dead to God , His loved and His light . dead men don't choose!

as it is written , " I was found by those who didn't seek me " .

who found God ? answer from scripture ; those who did NOT seek Him!

Yes, I understand that Jesus came to heal the sick, and they may not have been looking for God.

However, God offered himself to us - his love, we still need to choose that love freely.

Nothing in what you said shows that he compelled people to choose him.

Isn't God good

God is good, but apparently he randomly picks whomever for no reason other than his own arbitrary reasons - much like al-Lah in Islam.

In Islam they believe that God acts according to his own will, and no matter what he does, it's 'good'.

In Christianity (except some versions like your own) God is good and he shows us his will of what is good and he doesn't change what is good - it is a guide for us, by Jesus' own witness here on earth.

Your version would be that Jesus walked along and for no particular reason at all, save his own arbitrary reasons randomly picked some people to save, yet commanding us to love everyone. He would be a hypocrite.


Why does the Bible call us to turn to God, if some are already elected for salvation?
The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).
(list taken from http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html)

 

[Montalban]

Jesus came to us and was the Word made Flesh. He showed us how to live.

If showing us how to live meant nothing he wouldn't have called us to him. There would be no reason for Jesus to give examples on how to live for none of this would matter, if someone is predestined to heaven.

 

[andreha]

One thing I'm certain of, is that predestination doesn't necessarily mean a bed of roses...

 

[chestertonrules]

Unfortunately nobody really chooses to accept it.

there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. - Romans 3:11

I do.

God's grace seeks out all of us. We then choose to accept or reject his grace.

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

 

[chestertonrules]

Can a dead man choose to live?

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

 

[Tamara224]

Jesus came to us and was the Word made Flesh. He showed us how to live.

If showing us how to live meant nothing he wouldn't have called us to him. There would be no reason for Jesus to give examples on how to live for none of this would matter, if someone is predestined to heaven.

There's more to salvation than a ticket to heaven.

 

[Hammster]

I do.



God's grace seeks out all of us. We then choose to accept or reject his grace.

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  
  John 12:31-32
  

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  
  1Cor. 15:21-22
  

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
  

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  
  Rom 11:32
  

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  1 John 2:1-2
  

Just goes to show how close the Arminian/semi-Pelagian/Weslian doctrine is to the Catholic church. Praise God for the reformers.

 

[chestertonrules]

Just goes to show how close the Arminian/semi-Pelagian/Weslian doctrine is to the Catholic church. Praise God for the reformers.

In other words, you prefer your dogma to scripture and therefore will toss out a meaningless accusation rather than address my post.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus came to us and was the Word made Flesh. He showed us how to live.



If showing us how to live meant nothing he wouldn't have called us to him. There would be no reason for Jesus to give examples on how to live for none of this would matter, if someone is predestined to heaven.

Making the same straw-man argument over and over will not cause it to come true.

 

[Hammster]

In other words, you prefer your dogma to scripture and therefore will toss out a meaningless accusation rather than address my post.

Your post has been addressed countless times on these forums. Just go to Soteriology and read the anti-Calvinst threads. They are legion. If we were to take your verses in the context you use them (which is out of context), it leads to universalism.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your post has been addressed countless times on these forums. Just go to Soteriology and read the anti-Calvinst threads. They are legion. If we were to take your verses in the context you use them (which is out of context), it leads to universalism.

Wrong. The verses do not support universalism.


You can't address them, as you know. We've been through this before.

Calvinists must add or remove words from the bible in order to support their dogma.

 

[Albion]

Your post has been addressed countless times on these forums. Just go to Soteriology and read the anti-Calvinst threads. They are legion. If we were to take your verses in the context you use them (which is out of context), it leads to universalism.

Very well said. The verses themselves do not teach universalism, but the logic that is applied to them is essentially the same as is used on behalf of universal salvation.