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Predestination

BRISH

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ByHISway,

To answer you, I have first to say to set aside some of the other issues you wove into your question--foreknowledge and the fact that we like to think that we are the masters of our fate. They have nothing to do with the issue. God knows the future; that is not the issue and doesn't cut either for or against predestination. That we like to think that we choose God and not the other way around is something that we find appealing, but it is not necessarily so. It is entirely possible that we become, think, etc. as we are permitted or chosen to do by a higher power.

Now, to turn to your question more directly...

The Bible speaks of God's "Elect" in a number of places. Some people have tried to "finesse" this by saying that the Elect is just a wordfor everyone who decides to follow Christ, sooner or later. However, the Bible describes them as having been chosen by God. In fact, the word itself doesn't make any sense if there is no "election" involved. A candidate doesn't elect himself, does he? Neither does any of us choose salvation. That is done by God; and we know this since Paul teaches that there is nothing of ourselves that contributes to our salvation.

But as for specific verses, I would suggest John 10: 27-29. Here we have Jesus himself describing certain folliower of his as guaranteed not to be lost to him--no falling away at a later time is possible! That is as clear a piece of evidence of the truth of predestination (election) as you need.


Your'e right on with where I was trying to go with this. I just wasn't sure myself at the time.

Chosen elect.

I really don't like that phrase to be honest.

John 10: 16

And the other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


I can see a couple different perceptions of what predestination means, and I can agree to a point. It kind of states both sides.


Bottom line question:

Is there a belief out there that some "spiritual birth right" determines one's ending ......regardless of one's efforts?
 
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cygnusx1

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Bottom line question:

Is there a belief out there that some "spiritual birth right" determines one's ending ......regardless of one's efforts?

yes , there sure is ;

Rom.9

[1] I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit,

[2] that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.
[4] They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
[5] to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.
[6] But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

[7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."
[8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.
[9] For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son."
[10] And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
[11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,
[12] she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."
[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
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bricklayer

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God is either absolutely sovereign or absolutely not.
Were chance to exist, God would be subject to it,
He would therefore not be sovereign.

Nothing happens by chance. There is no chance.
Everything happens by God, and everything means everything.
 
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Albion

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"the good shepherd lays down his life for his elected sheep .... not the goats "

.....do goats become sheep after accepting salvation, in your opinion?

The passage says nothing about any goats becoming sheep or accepting salvation. In fact, I can't find the word "goats" anywhere in it.
 
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BRISH

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I know.

The Word speaks of his sheep, lost sheep, jews and gentiles, and how even someone who mentioned being equal to a dog begging for scraps had just enough faith to say so....but no goats.


I thought maybe the poster was referring goats to "gentiles".

I'm overwhelmed at all of this. I'm overwhelmed to think that there is a belief (supposedly mine) that says no matter if you truely seek God and accept him into your heart...that certain people could not be saved or make it into heaven. Is that how you perceive/accept?

That's what I'm getting from the answers. That's not what I want to tell others who are seeking him. Am I understanding your answers inaccurately?



~I have never heard of Cryrus. Looking up~
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I know.

The Word speaks of his sheep, lost sheep, jews and gentiles, and how even someone who mentioned being equal to a dog begging for scraps had just enough faith to say so....but no goats.


I thought maybe the poster was referring goats to "gentiles".

I'm overwhelmed at all of this. I'm overwhelmed to think that there is a belief (supposedly mine) that says no matter if you truely seek God and accept him into your heart...that certain people could not be saved or make it into heaven. Is that how you perceive/accept?

That's what I'm getting from the answers. That's not what I want to tell others who are seeking him. Am I understanding your answers inaccurately?



~I have never heard of Cryrus. Looking up~
A typo sorry

Isaiah 44 : 28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah 45 : 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Ezra 1 : 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
 
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Albion

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I'm overwhelmed at all of this. I'm overwhelmed to think that there is a belief (supposedly mine) that says no matter if you truely seek God and accept him into your heart...that certain people could not be saved or make it into heaven. Is that how you perceive/accept?

That's what I'm getting from the answers. That's not what I want to tell others who are seeking him. Am I understanding your answers inaccurately?

More or less, no. But think of it this way--

At first glance, we want to say that if we accept Christ, we are saved. But could you really accept or choose Christ (being that you are until then lost in sin and separated from God for that reason)? You wouldn't have any way of comprehending the message of the Gospel--and don't doubt for a moment that there are people who have read the Bible, understand it, have relatives who've tried to convert them...and yet they say it's all bunk. Why do they not believe when the next person does? God allows some--those he's chosen--to have their eyes and minds opened and so be saved. Others don't react that way no matter what. What makes the difference? Being chosen or not.

And suppose that predestination is not the truth, but we're all running the race of life equally, able to accept or reject Christ as we see fit? Is it not the case that there are a lot of people who are converted, so they say, and yet fall away later? Sure. That shows us that thinking you're saved and have faith doesn't necessarily make it so.

What I'm trying to say is that there are no guarantees merely because of what we THINK we have given our allegiance to, not by the Predestinarian POV or the opposite, the Freewill POV. But isn't it more reassuring to know that God is in charge than to believe, as the non-Predestinarians do, that you can persevere to the end, or maybe you won't. If Predestination is true, there's no falling away! There's only those who claimed to have a conversion experience but really didn't.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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*snip*. If Predestination is true, there's no falling away! There's only those who claimed to have a conversion experience but really didn't.
Predestined to do God's work for the furthering of His plan is one thing but the accepting of His work by humankind is another. The clay needs to be pliant for the Potter to work a piece of honour or it's just fit for dishonour. ie: disobedience.
 
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cygnusx1

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I know.

The Word speaks of his sheep, lost sheep, jews and gentiles, and how even someone who mentioned being equal to a dog begging for scraps had just enough faith to say so....but no goats.


I thought maybe the poster was referring goats to "gentiles".

I'm overwhelmed at all of this. I'm overwhelmed to think that there is a belief (supposedly mine) that says no matter if you truely seek God and accept him into your heart...that certain people could not be saved or make it into heaven. Is that how you perceive/accept?

That's what I'm getting from the answers. That's not what I want to tell others who are seeking him. Am I understanding your answers inaccurately?



~I have never heard of Cryrus. Looking up~

but none seek God . Romans 3

those who find salvation are sought out by the Good Shepherd , they are lost not the shepherd . :)

The sheep are God's elect the goats are reprobate .

Matthew 25:31-46 :
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
 
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cygnusx1

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honestly


Im sick at my stomach right now


read this it will make you better :hug:

You would imagine that God in the highest heavens would say, "I have mercies, but I will leave men alone, and when they feel their need of these mercies and seek me diligently with their whole heart, day and night, with tears, and vows, and supplications, then will I bless them, but not before." But, beloved, God saith no such thing.

It is true he doth bless them that cry unto him, but he blesses them before they cry, for their cries are not their own cries, but cries which he has put into their lips; their desires are not of their own growth, but desires which he has cast like good seed into the soil of their hearts. God saves the men that do not seek him. Oh, wonder of wonders! It is mercy indeed when God saves a seeker; but how much greater mercy when he seeks the lost himself! Mark the parable of Jesus Christ concerning the lost sheep; it does not run thus: "A certain man had a hundred sheep, and one of them did go astray. And he tarried at home, and lo, the sheep came back, and he received it joyfully and said to his friends, rejoice, for the sheep that I have lost is come back." No; he went after the sheep: it never would have come after him; it would have wandered farther and farther away. He went after it; over hills of difficulty, down valleys of despondency he pursued its wandering feet, and at last he laid hold of it; he did not drive it before him, he did not lead it, but he carried it himself all the way, and when he brought it home he did not say, the sheep is come back," but, "I have found the sheep which was lost."

Men do not seek God first; God seeks them first; and if any of you are seeking him to-day it is because he has first sought you. If you are desiring him he desired you first, and your good desires and earnest seeking will not be the cause of your salvation, but the effects of previous grace given to you. "Well," says another, "I should have thought that although the Saviour might not require an earnest seeking and sighing and groaning, and a continuous searching, after him, yet certainly he would have desired and demanded that every man, before he had grace, should ask for it." That, indeed, beloved, seems natural, and God will give grace to them that ask for it; but mark, the text says that he was manifested "to them that asked not for him." That is to say, before we ask, God gives us grace.

The only reason why any man ever begins to pray is because God has put previous grace in his heart which leads him to pray. I remember, when I was converted to God, I was an Arminian thoroughly. I thought I had begun the good work myself, and I used sometimes to sit down and think, "Well, I sought the Lord four years before I found him," and I think I began to compliment myself upon the fact that I had perseveringly entreated of him in the midst of much discouragement. But one day the thought struck me, "How was it you came to seek God?" and in an instant the answer came from my soul, "Why, because he led me to do it; he must first have shown me my need of him, or else I should never have sought him; he must have shown me his preciousness, or I never should have thought him worth seeking;" and at once I saw the doctrines of grace as clear as possible. God must begin. Nature can never rise above itself. You put water into a reservoir, and it will rise as high as that, but no higher if let alone. Now, it is not in human nature to seek the Lord. Human nature is depraved, and therefore, there must be the extraordinary pressure of the Holy Spirit put upon the heart to lead us first to ask for mercy.

Sovereign Grace and Man's Responsibility
 
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Albion

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Predestined to do God's work for the furthering of His plan is one thing but the accepting of His work by humankind is another.
Hi. I confess that I'm not sure of the point you are making there, but Predestination is about being saved, not selected for a great task, although we presume that the elect will live as true believers would.
 
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cygnusx1

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Predestined to do God's work for the furthering of His plan is one thing but the accepting of His work by humankind is another. The clay needs to be pliant for the Potter to work a piece of honour or it's just fit for dishonour. ie: disobedience.

good post sister , humans are responsible for their actions :)
 
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bricklayer

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We are utterly subject and utterly accountable.
I remember what a hard pill that was for me to swallow.
It seemed unfair, because it is unfair,
But God has every right to do with His creation what ever He pleases.

Would you rather accept God to be lees than sovereign,
a God that can be subject to you? human-free-will? chance?

An accountable subject may well be unfair,
but a sovereign being subject to anything is a flat out bald faced contradiction.

Consider this:
Grace can only emanate from sovereignty, otherwise it's not grace.

Consider this:
When you say that Jesus Christ is Lord, do you mean Lord or lord?

I am left to believe that He IS Lord, I don't "make him lord".
 
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cygnusx1

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What's that got to do with Predestination?

there is a balance to be maintained , Predestination is true , human responsibility is true , we must uphold both . Stress one and it is almost certain distortion will follow (hyper-calvinism etc)

WCF

Chapter X

Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
 
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