Predestination

[ceh85]

V interesting thread. I am confused about the devil. Where does he fit in? If predestination is true, has God chosen that some of us will fall away?

 

[AndOne]

Just another passage from scripture in regards to predestination:

Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

 

[Montalban]

What's the point in having a conversation about this if people think we're predestined to either heaven or hell?

If this were true then there's nothing discussing it would change.

 

[Hammster]

What's the point in having a conversation about this if people think we're predestined to either heaven or hell?

If this were true then there's nothing discussing it would change.

Oh, but you believe we are predestined to heaven or hell. So why are you discussing it? Or do you not believe that God is omniscient?

 

[bricklayer]

First of all, I would like to clarify, I have not changed subject.

This is a discussion about sovereign/subject, necessary/contingent.

"Predestination" is a temporal term (a time term).
It is what God's sovereignty looks like, from a temporal point of view.
That's all it is.

What's more, it is a self-centered point of view.
What's called anthropocentric.

The question is not "What are we, predestined or not?".
The question is, who is God?
If He is LORD, if He is sovereign, then we are subjet, and all that implies.

God cannot be both, sometimes sovereign sometimes subject.
He is either absolutely sovereign or He is absolutely not.

Now, as for the matter of human-free-will.


A free-will is a will free to act according to its nature.
If God is sovereign and we are subjct, then it is our nature to be subject.

Human-free-will does equate to human-sovereign-will.
God is not subject to human-free-will, or chance, or anything else.
This popular equation sets man above God, as master of his own destiny.
Again, anthropocentric.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A typo sorry

Isaiah 44 : 28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isaiah 45 : 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Ezra 1 : 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Then Cyrus had no free will

V interesting thread. I am confused about the devil. Where does he fit in? If predestination is true, has God chosen that some of us will fall away?

fwiw
Herein is the paradox because satan said to God that mankind are just fed animals and if God didn't give them everything then no way would they serve Him. The book of Job (if nothing else) proved satan to be wrong.

 

[Montalban]

Oh, but you believe we are predestined to heaven or hell. So why are you discussing it?

But I don't believe we're predestined

Or do you not believe that God is omniscient?

Because I believe that in his omniscience he granted us a free will.

 

[Montalban]

fwiw
Herein is the paradox because satan said to God that mankind are just fed animals and if God didn't give them everything then no way would they serve Him. The book of Job (if nothing else) proved satan to be wrong.

If we don't have a free will then God's gift to us is non-existent. (or non-existant - depending on my poor spelling)

 

[bricklayer]

human-free-will does not equal human-sovereign-will

God is not subject to human-free-will, chance or anything else

 

[Montalban]

human-free-will does not equal human-sovereign-will

God is not subject to human-free-will, chance or anything else

Who says that God is subject to human free will?

God has to power to enforce his will upon us. If he chooses to let us decide for ourselves he has not lost that power, because God can't lose anything.

There'd be no point in creating us if there was predestination. What would be the point in us living a life, if he'd already made up his mind how it was going to be played out? All the suffering being endured would be pointless.

If I suffer, say as Job did, I know it has a purpose because how I react to that suffering has a meaning. I can choose to be an evil person or I can choose to not bend to that suffering.

I have a free-will. I can choose God freely. If I didn't have a free-will this whole conversation would be pointless too.

 

[boswd]

without Free Will then Christ died for nothing. What we be the sense of Christ dying on the Cross if God already Pre Chosen his subjects in Heaven and who would be the subjects in Hell.

 

[Hammster]

But I don't believe we're predestined


Because I believe that in his omniscience he granted us a free will.

Doesn't matter. If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen. And all that He knows can't be changed. So, addressing your question of why are we discussing it, (if we believe that God predestines salvation), whether or not He predestines salvation is irrelevant since nothing can be changed anyway. Heck, none of us should even witness since nothing can be changed.

 

[Hammster]

without Free Will then Christ died for nothing. What we be the sense of Christ dying on the Cross if God already Pre Chosen his subjects in Heaven and who would be the subjects in Hell.

Uh, because those who are predestined are still sinners who need a savior. The cross actually accomplished something. It didn't just make people savable, as your view would suggest.

 

[Montalban]

Doesn't matter. If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen. And all that He knows can't be changed. So, addressing your question of why are we discussing it, (if we believe that God predestines salvation), whether or not He predestines salvation is irrelevant since nothing can be changed anyway. Heck, none of us should even witness since nothing can be changed.

There's a difference between saying "God knows the outcome" to "God makes the outcome."

Predestination is about God taking away our choice and pre-ordaining who it is whom he will save, and whom he won't save.

 

[boswd]

Uh, because those who are predestined are still sinners who need a savior. The cross actually accomplished something. It didn't just make people savable, as your view would suggest.

What do you need a savior from? You are Pre Chosen to ALREADY go to heaven

 

[Montalban]

What do you need a savior from? You are Pre Chosen to ALREADY go to heaven

God wouldn't even need to let this all 'play out' because he's already chosen whom he will save.

All our present-day suffering would be totally meaningless.

 

[Hammster]

What do you need a savior from? You are Pre Chosen to ALREADY go to heaven

Last time I checked, the predestined were still sinners deserving of Hell. The elect are still sinners. The elect have the same problem as the non-elect. Sin.

 

[Hammster]

God wouldn't even need to let this all 'play out' because he's already chosen whom he will save.

All our present-day suffering would be totally meaningless.

That is definitely a man-centered view.

 

[bricklayer]

I never wrote that we didn't have a free-will.
I maintain that we do not have a sovereign will.

If God were subject to human-free-will, He would not be sovereign.

God is either absolutely sovereign or absolutely not, such is the nature of sovereignty.

 

[Hammster]

There's a difference between saying "God knows the outcome" to "God makes the outcome."

Predestination is about God taking away our choice and pre-ordaining who it is whom he will save, and whom he won't save.

But I was addressing why we are even talking about this. The end is set whether or not you believe in monergism or synergism.