Predestination??

[woobadooba]

Not to mention he won't debate decent opponents.

I tried debating him some time ago, and instead of addressing me himself, he had one of his indoctrinated servants argue for him.

He lost the debate of course, with one simple argument.

If God willed some to be saved and others to be lost, then it logically follows that whatever we are is what God willed us to be, whether we are good or bad.

If this is the case, then no one will be refused heaven, since Jesus had said, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven." Matt. 7:21

Thus if we are simply playing out the role that God gave us, then we are doing His will! Therefore, we should all go to heaven.

But Jesus doesn't say that. So then, either Jesus was a liar, or James White doesn't know what he's talking about.

I choose the latter.

 

[ContraMundum]

I tried debating him some time ago, and instead of addressing me himself, he had one of his indoctrinated fools argue for him.

He lost the debate of course, with one simple argument.

If God willed some to be saved and others to be lost, then it logically follows that whatever we are is what God willed us to be, whether we are good or bad.

If this is the case, then no one will be refused heaven, since Jesus had said, "Not everyone who say to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven." Matt. 7:21

Thus if we are simply playing out the role that God gave us, then we are doing His will! Therefore, we should all go to heaven.

But Jesus doesn't say that. So then, either Jesus was a liar, or James White doesn't know what he is talking about.

I choose the latter.

Well, as you may well know, any half-decent Calvinist would make a meal out of that argument, but your point is still interesting,and it is worth noting that the disciples of this guy often aren't terribly well equipped themselves.

The problem with White is that he's revered (like MacArthur) and really, he's just tickling ears. People who hold to those views already thrust men like these into the limelight that they might in turn drive other's into their camp.

I had a discussion with someone who was "Whitewashed" (pun intended) some time ago about some other topics in scriptures (mainly sacramental matters) only to be completely stunned at how this person would not regard any reference to the Greek or Hebrew as valid until he ran it through his little laundrette ran with "White-goods" (pun again intended). When he found that White pretty much ignored the topics and brushed over the scriptures that didn't support his theology, he began his journey away from White and now enjoys a more balanced outlook IMHO.

Just an anecdote for your enjoyment.

 

[woobadooba]

Well, as you may well know, any half-decent Calvinist would make a meal out of that argument, but your point is still interesting,and it is worth noting that the disciples of this guy often aren't terribly well equipped themselves.

Actually, so far every time I used it, it has been ignored. And I've used it on some very strong Calvinists, one being the person that James White sought to use to refute me.

I have others in my arsenal, but the truth of the matter is that it is virtually a waste of time arguing with Calvinists. They are worse than JWs.

However, when you catch them early on in their walk with God, it is easier to reason with them. But people like James White will hold to their opinion until the day they die. They are lost, and they don't even realize it because they are too busy implying to others in their haughty way, that they are the elect.

Pride always comes before the fall.

 

[yebastick]

Wooba, let me pose a question: when you use the term "lost" on people who believes in the Calvinist-interpretation of predestination, do you mean they are not save? Correct me if Im wrong.

BTW, I don't agree with their interpretation. But what bothers me is, I get this sense that you are so definitive and emphatic on the view you hold that you call those who does not acquisce with your interpretation as "fools".

Do you really absolutely believe there is no form of predestination whatsoever and ignore the difficult verses that seem to indicate so?

What is my belief on this subject? Honestly, Im not sure. Question now is, is my uncertainty on this subject will cause me to lose my salvation?

Peace, bro. But my fear is, that you may have won the arguements against the Whites but may have lost some kindreds.

Im for discusssion, but calling people names is the part I disliked.

------------------------------------------
"That i may know Him ..." Philippians 3;10

 

[woobadooba]

Wooba, let me pose a question: when you use the term "lost" on people who believes in the Calvinist-interpretation of predestination, do you mean they are not save? Correct me if Im wrong.

BTW, I don't agree with their interpretation. But what bothers me is, I get this sense that you are so definitive and emphatic on the view you hold that you call those who does not acquisce with your interpretation as "fools".

Do you really absolutely believe there is no form of predestination whatsoever and ignore the difficult verses that seem to indicate so?

What is my belief on this subject? Honestly, Im not sure. Question now is, is my uncertainty on this subject will cause me to lose my salvation?

Peace, bro. But my fear is, that you may have won the arguements against the Whites but may have lost some kindreds.

Im for discusssion, but calling people names is the part I disliked.

------------------------------------------
"That i may know Him ..." Philippians 3;10

Ok, I'm going to be blunt right now.

And I'm positive that what I'm about to say will not go over well with some, but I feel that it must be said. I have nothing to hide.

They are lost in the sense that they are preaching a gospel that will take them straight to hell, because it is a message that makes God look like an unjust tyrant.

In fact, some are so deceived that they actually believe that God doesn't love all humankind, but only those whom He supposedly elected to be saved prior to their existence, with total disregard to free-will.

This goes against everything that Jesus died for!

In fact, I consider people who share this view to be heretics, because they have gone away from the true gospel.

And as for calling them fools, did any of the apostles ever speak kindly of heretics? No, they warned us to stay away from them. Did not Paul call the Galatians foolish for going away from the faith?

It is our duty to warn these people, but if they won't listen to scripture, and sound reason, then they are fools.

As for the doctrine of predestination, I do believe it. But I don't believe Calvin's devilish version of it.

 

[Reformationist]

Yebastick, I am aware of your statement that you do not agree with the Calvinist understanding of the Gospel, but if I may, let me see if I can enlighten you to why some of us do not contend that God "loves" all mankind without exception.

They are lost in the sense that they are preaching a gospel that will take them straight to hell, because it is a message that makes God look like an unjust tyrant.

This is the kind of comment that shows someone's complete lack of understanding of the view that Calvinists espouse, as well as a healthy dose of anthropocentric thinking. You see, to claim that the Calvinist view makes God "look like an unjust tyrant" shows someone's inability to grasp the biblical teaching that God's love, His grace in salvation, His mercy, is unwarranted. For a moment, please consider the destiny you'd earn on your own, apart from the intercession of a merciful God. If you believe it would be anything other than everlasting damnation, well, you'd be mistaken. Therefore, if God does nothing except give man what he deserves, even if what he deserves is everlasting damnation, then it is not unjust of God to dispense such judgment. What it does do, however, is highlight the great mercy with which He has condescended to behold those He has elected unto salvation from the foundations of the world. When we acknowledge and understand the horror of our own deserved judgment, we can much more clearly recognize the loving hand of God in our undeserved redemption.

Moving on...

In fact, some are so deceived that they actually believe that God doesn't love all humankind, but only those whom He supposedly elected to be saved prior to their existence, with total disregard to free-will.

Here we have a comment by a poster that shows, once again, a total disregard for the love of God in an self-centered effort to elevate the creation above the Creator. This is clearly a person who values his own glory so much that he is viturally incapable of humbling himself to the knowledge that he, like the rest of us, is a wicked sinner who, left to his own "free will," would will himself right into hell. To claim that God loves all without exception, one must do one of two things, or both. They must claim that the love of God, in and of itself, is impotent to bring to pass the will of an omnipotent God. For such a claim makes all undeserving people, without exception, the recipients of God's love and yet, many of them clearly still end up in hell. And/Or, one must reduce the love of God to such a base level as to explain the deversity in the results as the product of some mythical "different levels of love," i.e., He loves these people over here and that love ensures their redemption but the love He gives to these people over here doesn't bring them to salvation. In short, this person places all of the power, and thus the credit for the appropriation of salvation, upon the most holy and clearly supreme "free will" of man.

It is our duty to warn these people, but if they won't listen to scripture, and sound reason, then they are fools.

Now this, yebastick, is the first intelligent comment this particular "fool" has given out. Unfortunately, he does not recognize that he should be speaking to the man in the mirror. Well, I will pray that God releases him from these ridiculous and unbiblical dillusions of granduer.

If you'd like to understand what Calvinists actually believe about the topic of predestination, and are interested in hearing it from people who actually understand it rather than the buffoons that style themselves the prophet of God, commissioned with wresting the world from the evil grip of reformed doctrine, here is a link to a subforum on this MB that you can visit:

Ask A Calvinist

I hope to see you there.

God bless

 

[yebastick]

Reform:

Thanx, I'll read the subforum. But dont expect too much for I have heard, read, and studied the topic at hand and host of other controversies long before. But dont worry, on controversial matters, Im always open for ideas, weighing and considering.

Sadly, reform, you pick up the stones what wooba had thrown. Buffoon is uncalled for.

Anyway, a question: if I refuse to believe on the Calvinist interperpretation of predistination, am I still save?

On essentials, I'm a bit close-minded.





wooba:



The controversy of predestination remains a controversy for the simple reason no one FULLY understands it. And, I have feeling, no one will. Yet not fully understanding is not an excuse to fence sit. But we must also respect the area of where the confusion lies.

I ask if my salvation is affected by what I "belief" on issue at hand, because this is important to me, testing your interpretation on essentials I dear hold.

The problem of interpretation is the problem of 5 Blind Man and An Elephant.

This is, get 5 blind man, and let each one touch different parts of the elephant: tail, foot, body, tusk, and trunk. Let each feel and sense that part. Then ask each blind man, "What is an elephant?"

Obviously, you'll get different version. Yet each one is telling the truth. Allow the blindmen to discuss among themselves, and they wont stop beating each until the others see the light.

But I get your point, wooba.

 

[woobadooba]

Reform:

Thanx, I'll read the subforum. But dont expect too much for I have heard, read, and studied the topic at hand and host of other controversies long before. But dont worry, on controversial matters, Im always open for ideas, weighing and considering.

Sadly, reform, you pick up the stones what wooba had thrown. Buffoon is uncalled for.

Anyway, a question: if I refuse to believe on the Calvinist interperpretation of predistination, am I still save?

On essentials, I'm a bit close-minded.





wooba:



The controversy of predestination remains a controversy for the simple reason no one FULLY understands it. And, I have feeling, no one will. Yet not fully understanding is not an excuse to fence sit. But we must also respect the area of where the confusion lies.

I ask if my salvation is affected by what I "belief" on issue at hand, because this is important to me, testing your interpretation on essentials I dear hold.

The problem of interpretation is the problem of 5 Blind Man and An Elephant.

This is, get 5 blind man, and let each one touch different parts of the elephant: tail, foot, body, tusk, and trunk. Let each feel and sense that part. Then ask each blind man, "What is an elephant?"

Obviously, you'll get different version. Yet each one is telling the truth. Allow the blindmen to discuss among themselves, and they wont stop beating each until the others see the light.

But I get your point, wooba.

Truth is, it can be understood. And I do understand it. But the Calvinist, who incessantly contradicts himself, will never agree to what it really means.

 

[woobadooba]

If you'd like to understand what Calvinists actually believe about the topic of predestination, and are interested in hearing it from people who actually understand it rather than the buffoons that style themselves the prophet of God, commissioned with wresting the world from the evil grip of reformed doctrine, here is a link to a subforum on this MB that you can visit:

Ask A Calvinist

I hope to see you there.

God bless

I've read the Institutes, debated with many people on this issue, including you, and no one has convinced me that he/she understands the issue of predestination, much less the rest of the gospel.

 

[Normann]

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The word "whosoever" in all three of these passages is from the Greek word...

pas, pas; meaning; all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Some Calvinist tell me this word does not mean just anyone, but only the pre-selected ones.

So let's give the same Calvinist meaning to the following scriptures...

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Calvinist meaning would be not everyone that commits sin is the servant of sin. Yet this is the same Greek word (pas).

2 John 1:9
Whosoever (pas) transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Calvinist meaning... some people can trangress and still abide in Christ?


1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever (pas) is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Calvinist meaning is that some can be born of God and still sin?

Shall we go on with more?

John Calvin was a false teacher.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (KJV) Luke 10:21

 

[woobadooba]

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (KJV) Luke 10:21

You can't see this, but for the simple fact that you've taken this verse from its context, and are now quoting it within a context to which it doesn't belong, it is actually a rebuke to you, rather than a help!

 

[ContraMundum]

Reformationist,

Have you had a look at that "warm cookie" model of election I posted for your perusal yet? (a few pages back..top)

 

[ContraMundum]

Actually, so far every time I used it, it has been ignored. And I've used it on some very strong Calvinists, one being the person that James White sought to use to refute me.

Well, I'll se eif any of these chaps on here have the equipment (and inkling) to refute that argument.

I have others in my arsenal, but the truth of the matter is that it is virtually a waste of time arguing with Calvinists. They are worse than JWs.

However, when you catch them early on in their walk with God, it is easier to reason with them. But people like James White will hold to their opinion until the day they die. They are lost, and they don't even realize it because they are too busy implying to others in their haughty way, that they are the elect.

Pride always comes before the fall.

Well, I believe in "Sola Fide". If a person, whether they be Calvinist or Catholic, has saving faith in Christ and trusts in Him alone for his salvation then they will be saved, whether or not their doctrines are wrong on matters not pertaining to faith in Christ. I don't think Calvinists are going to Hell for believing Calvinism.

Having said that, I know a pastor who was formerly both Calvinist and Arminian, now Lutheran, who said that the main problem with Calvinism is that no one who believes it ultimately knows if they are one of the elect or not- because they have to rely on feelings alone (there's a new one for ya- "Sola Emotion") to even believe that they have faith. That's why this particular guy left Calvinism for Lutheranism.

Again, I'm sure some Calvinists have some answers for that.

 

[woobadooba]

Well, I'll se eif any of these chaps on here have the equipment (and inkling) to refute that argument.

It's not likely that they will, but I assure you, if they try they will not be successful. It is much more complicated than it appears to be.

Well, I believe in "Sola Fide". If a person, whether they be Calvinist or Catholic, has saving faith in Christ and trusts in Him alone for his salvation then they will be saved, whether or not their doctrines are wrong on matters not pertaining to faith in Christ. I don't think Calvinists are going to Hell for believing Calvinism.

But if they have been approached on the issue, and have rejected scripture, then that is just as good as rejecting God. And no one who rejects the Lord can be saved without repentence.

 

[Beoga]

I correct you with Calvin's own words...

"...all are not created equal..." John Calvin

I don't see how you corrected me with this, since you just stated the "correction" without any explaination. When did I say, in what you quoted by me, one way or the other whether or not all people are created equal or not?
Also, why did you fail to cite Calvin? Why did you fail to quote what you quoted in its entire context?

Calvins teaching is a judgement against God because...

...it says God is not perfect and makes some people that are junk...

Assertions get you nowhere. Why is God not perfect if He chooses to make some people "junk?"

...that God enjoys burning people for eternity...

Assertion again. Why is God not perfect because of this?

...that God sends little babies to hell...

Emotional statement. No matter, it is another mere assertion. Why is God not perfect if He sends little babies to hell? Why do little babies deserve Heaven?

Calvinism is a lie because it denies the truth of the scriptures.

Yet another mere assertion.

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Love this verse. Don't know how I can deny it if I love it! All that come to Christ will find rest!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Amen! If anyone believes in Christ they will be with Him forever!

 

[Beoga]

Put it this way, you are a person, not a sinful nature. You have a sinful nature, yes, but God doesn't hate you because of this.

God hates the sin, not the sinner.

Psalm 5:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.

Sounds to me like God hates the sinner, not just the sin.

It is important to recognize the difference between language that is metaphorical, and language that is literal.

Just because God is likened to a husband, that doesn't mean He is one, or that He expresses Himself as one who would be put in the class of the average Joe.

Using arguments like this doesn't support your point, because that is not what these sayings were intended for. It is always best to stick to the context of a passage, to draw from it the intended meaning of the author, rather than to twist it in hope that it might make your argument work.

It will work with those who don't know better, but for those of us who have gone through the pains of spending many hours learning about hermeneutics, and how to exegete a passage, it doesn't work.

You know, in all of this, you never mentioned how I was in error for comparing Christ's love toward His elect/church with the love that a husband has for his wife.
There is a reason why Christ is compared to a husband and why husbands are commanded to love their wives like Christ loves the church. Paul wasn't just writing just for fun.

 

[Normann]

Watch how the Calvinist will over-ride the scriptures with their own view.

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:14-15
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. [15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Salvation is for all men, not just a pre-selected group.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

Watch how the Calvinist will over-ride the scriptures with their own view.

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:14-15
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. [15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Salvation is for all men, not just a pre-selected group.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

how can anyone act as if Election isn't in the Bible ............ I think you will find it is in 24 out of 27 New Testament books

here's a few , I might quote them all .........

"There is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him"— Ephesians 1:4


"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit" (2 Thess. 2:13).


"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48)


"The elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen" (Mark 13:20).


Paul, "he is a chosen vessel unto Me" (Acts 9:15).


"Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people" (1 Pet. 2:9)


Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it" (Rom. 11:2-7).


"For the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened . . . insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect ... and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (Matt. 24:22, 24, 31).

"Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him?" (Luke 18:7).

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect?" (Rom. 8:33).


"That the purpose of God according to election might stand" (Rom. 9:11).

"I endure all things for the elect’s sake" (2 Tim. 2:10)

"The faith of God’s elect" (Titus 1:1).

 

[woobadooba]

Psalm 5:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.

Sounds to me like God hates the sinner, not just the sin.

Have you studied Hebrew? I have. And "hate" isn't to be interpreted in the way that you are interpreting it here.

What this simply means, according to the original language, is that God is unable to put up with the character of sin. In other words, He doesn't tolerate it.

And by the way, if God really does hate the sinner, where does that leave you?

And if He does hate the sinner, which must therefore be His enemy according to your understanding, why then, would Jesus, the expressed image of God, tell His disciples to love their enemies? Matt. 5:44

Do you see now why it is important not to hang all of your weight on one or two Bible verses with total disregard to the context of the passage?

You know, in all of this, you never mentioned how I was in error for comparing Christ's love toward His elect/church with the love that a husband has for his wife. There is a reason why Christ is compared to a husband and why husbands are commanded to love their wives like Christ loves the church. Paul wasn't just writing just for fun.

I gave you my explanation. But you didn't like it. But read these verses when you get a chance: Acts. 10:34; Jam. 3:17; 1Tim. 5:21

Now, either we have some contradictions here, or you just aren't getting it again, because you are spending too much time reading meaning into a passage that the author never intended.