Predestination??

[Reformationist]

Reform:

Thanx, I'll read the subforum. But dont expect too much for I have heard, read, and studied the topic at hand and host of other controversies long before. But dont worry, on controversial matters, Im always open for ideas, weighing and considering.

I can't imagine anybody could expect anything else. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issue.

Sadly, reform, you pick up the stones what wooba had thrown. Buffoon is uncalled for.

For the record, I did not identify anyone in particular. I merely refer to those that show themselves for what they are when they seem to make it their life's goal on this MB to search out every thread about Calvinism and debate it. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with what I espouse. I know that the understanding I have of the grace of God is by the grace of God. I simply have a problem with those that seem to have a particular affinity for arguing against reformed doctrine when they clearly can't see past the end of their man-centered noses.

Anyway, a question: if I refuse to believe on the Calvinist interperpretation of predistination, am I still save?

We are not saved by our doctrinal position so I cannot see how this would hinder God from adopting you into His family. But, I do pray that He enlightens those to whom He has graciously given life but left in their self-centered doctrines.

On essentials, I'm a bit close-minded.

I understand, though I don't really know what you consider an "essential."

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I've read the Institutes, debated with many people on this issue, including you, and no one has convinced me that he/she understands the issue of predestination, much less the rest of the gospel.

I understand the doctrine. As for "convincing you that I understand," well, that may not be due to any inability on my part.

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist,

Have you had a look at that "warm cookie" model of election I posted for your perusal yet? (a few pages back..top)

Yes. I looked it over. I meant to respond to that effect. My apologies if I failed to do that.

Were you wanting to discuss that model of election?

God bless

 

[woobadooba]

I understand the doctrine. As for "convincing you that I understand," well, that may not be due to any inability on my part.

And what you say is true, that you understand YOUR doctrine. But your doctrine does not concur with the Bible's doctrine, on this issue.

 

[MbiaJc]

I've read the Institutes, debated with many people on this issue, including you, and no one has convinced me that he/she understands the issue of predestination, much less the rest of the gospel.

If I may but in, the Gospel and predestination are so simple a child can understand them.

The Gospel in simple terms: Jesus paid our sin debt for us.

Predestination: God foreordained before the foundation of the world was laid. That He would give the ones that believed in Jesus, the power to become the Sons of God.

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(1Pe 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Because it is so simple, is the way it is hid from the proud and prudent.

My two cents worth.

 

[woobadooba]

If I may but in, the Gospel and predestination are so simple a child can understand them.

The Gospel in simple terms: Jesus paid our sin debt for us.

Predestination: God foreordained before the foundation of the world was laid. That He would give the ones that believed in Jesus, the power to become the Sons of God.

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(1Pe 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Because it is so simple, is the way it is hid from the proud and prudent.

My two cents worth.

Are you saying that God predestined their salvation because He foreknew they would believe?

If so, I have to disagree with that. God, regardless of whether He knew they would believe or not, would still have gone to the cross, to die for every sinner, because He is love, not because He is a debtor to those whom He knew would believe. See Rom. 3:26

God is no debtor to man; but all men are indebted to God.

 

[MbiaJc]

Are you saying that God predestined their salvation because He foreknew they would believe?

If so, I have to disagree with that. God, regardless of whether He knew they would believe or not, would still have gone to the cross, to die for every sinner, because He is love, not because He is a debtor to those whom He knew would believe. See Rom. 3:26

God is no debtor to man; but all men are indebted to God.

I thought I said it very simple, to where anyone could understand it. I will repeat: God chose to give the ones that would believe in His son Jesus, power to become Sons of God. He determined to do this before the foundation of the world was laid. It has nothing to do with God owing man anything. It is by His Grace(God the Father), through the faith of His Son (Jesus Christ), not of ourselves lest anyone should boast.

Jesus did not die for all sinners, because the ones that had already sined against the Holy Gost before the cross, there was no sacerfice left for them.

 

[woobadooba]

I thought I said it very simple, to where anyone could understand it. I will repeat: God chose to give the ones that would believe in His son Jesus, power to become Sons of God. He determined to do this before the foundation of the world was laid. It has nothing to do with God owing man anything. It is by His Grace(God the Father), through the faith of His Son (Jesus Christ), not of ourselves lest anyone should boast.

Jesus did not die for all sinners, because the ones that had already sined against the Holy Gost before the cross, there was no sacerfice left for them.

No, it does make God a debtor to man, because He foresaw that they would believe, and because they would believe He decided to save them.

My point is that even if God foresaw that no one would believe, He still would have gone to the cross, to die for all, thus showing all humankind, and the angels, that He is just.

And you totally ignored the verse that I gave you which testifies to the validity of this thought!

 

[hlaltimus]

He foreordains, unconditionally and from eternity, those who will go to Heaven and ordains, conditionally and from time, those who will not. He is not unfair in foreordaining some and not others. He is just in ordaining some to a state of punishment because this ordination is based upon their own condition of unrepentancy and unbelief in time.

 

[MbiaJc]

No, it does make God a debtor to man, because He foresaw that they would believe, and because they would believe He decided to save them.

That is your openion, I do not see it that way, for it is what the word teaches.

My point is that even if God foresaw that no one would believe, He still would have gone to the cross, to die for all, thus showing all humankind, and the angels, that He is just.

You have no Bible to back that up.

And you totally ignored the verse that I gave you which testifies to the validity of this thought!

Not so, for it confirms what I said. It in no way says Jesus would have gone to the cross, if no one would believe.

Rom 3:26 To declare, Isay, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[woobadooba]

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It is obvious that it is useless to continue further with you on this issue. Your position is just not logical, or scriptural.

I know you can't see this, but it is true.

Anyway, have a nice Christmas.

 

[ContraMundum]

But if they have been approached on the issue, and have rejected scripture, then that is just as good as rejecting God. And no one who rejects the Lord can be saved without repentence.

If I approached you on any scriptural issue and you dissagreed with me, would that mean that you are rejecting scripture and are thus rejecting God?

Is all we have to do to invalidate saving faith is show someone something in scripture that they may have wrong and afterward we do not agree, then salvation is pretty fickle, isn't it?

No thanks. I prefer to acknowledge that all saving faith is God's work in us, not something we do, and even ignorance of scripture cannot overthrow the work of God.

There are saving truths about God, without which no one can ever have saving faith, but the mysterious doctrine of election is not one of them.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes. I looked it over. I meant to respond to that effect. My apologies if I failed to do that.

Were you wanting to discuss that model of election?

God bless

Thanks brother, and yes, I'd like to discuss it because it poses some interesting thoughts to my mind, and I'd like feedback from other informed Christians.

 

[woobadooba]

If I approached you on any scriptural issue and you dissagreed with me, would that mean that you are rejecting scripture and are thus rejecting God?

Is all we have to do to invalidate saving faith is show someone something in scripture that they may have wrong and afterward we do not agree, then salvation is pretty fickle, isn't it?

No thanks. I prefer to acknowledge that all saving faith is God's work in us, not something we do, and even ignorance of scripture cannot overthrow the work of God.

There are saving truths about God, without which no one can ever have saving faith, but the mysterious doctrine of election is not one of them.

Well then, you obviously don't agree with this verse then, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures." 2Pt. 3:16

Now what do you think Peter meant by "destruction"?

Brother, I appreciate you, but don't candy-coat the gospel. Jesus didn't, and we shouldn't either.

People will lose their salvation because they have rejected scripture. Rejecting the word of God is the same as rejecting God Himself, since He inspired it. 2Tim. 3:16

And many will fall away from the faith because they have been deceived by their own self-conceit. Matt. 7:21-23

 

[MbiaJc]

It is obvious that it is useless to continue further with you on this issue. Your position is just not logical, or scriptural.

I know you can't see this, but it is true.

Anyway, have a nice Christmas.

Yeah, but it is the orher way around. You don't have any scripture to support your doctrine. However obviously I do.

If my position is not logical, or scriptural, put forth scriptures that will prove me wrong and not prove me right.

It is obvious you can't defend your position. Your reply is what one says when they are in over their head.

Anyway have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 

[woobadooba]

Yeah, but it is the orher way around. You don't have any scripture to support your doctrine. However obviously I do.

If my position is not logical, or scriptural, put forth scriptures that will prove me wrong and not prove me right.

It is obvious you can't defend your position. Your reply is what one says when they are in over their head.

Anyway have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

I'll give you one right now:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim. 2:4-5

But of course, you will deny the obvious and assume meaning on this passage that is contrary to what it really says.

After all, that is the Calvin way!

 

[cygnusx1]

I'll give you one right now:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim. 2:4-5

But of course, you will deny the obvious and assume meaning on this passage that is contrary to what it really says.

After all, that is the Calvin way!

let me ask you a few questions woobadooba .

How is it that the wicked are lost ?

Is that outside of God's will ?

If so then what else may befall creation that God has no power and Choice about ?

 

[rstrats]

Normann,

You have questions directed to you in posts 430 and 436 under the "Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath" topic.

 

[Debi1967]

Merry Christmas Everyone

Remember that today is a Day of Peace
That today is when the Lord entered this World
In the flesh to become man
To become one with us
So that He himself may spread one message
Love thy neighbor as yourself
To Love on another as yourself
Today is not the day for contentiousness
It is not the day of division
It is the day however to preach through example
Grace ​

 

[cygnusx1]

Merry Christmas Everyone


Remember that today is a Day of Peace
That today is when the Lord entered this World
In the flesh to become man
To become one with us
So that He himself may spread one message
Love thy neighbor as yourself
To Love on another as yourself
Today is not the day for contentiousness
It is not the day of division
It is the day however to preach through example
Grace
​

I'll be back in 6 hours then

happy Christmas !​