Predestination??

[Debi1967]

I'll be back in 6 hours then


happy Christmas !
​

Ok it is 12 hrs here for me so you have to go by my time .....

 

[woobadooba]

let me ask you a few questions woobadooba .

How is it that the wicked are lost ?

Is that outside of God's will ?

If so then what else may befall creation that God has no power and Choice about ?

I will answer your question with a Bible verse:

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent." Rev. 2:20-21

Now, was it God's fault that Jezebel won't be saved, or was it her fault because she didn't repent?

And was it God's will that she should perish in her sin, or was it her will to die in sin without God?

Again, I will remind you of this: God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim. 2:4

It can't get any clearer than this.

Please keep something in mind: Just because it is God's will that sinners who die in their sin will not receive salvation, that doesn't mean it wasn't His will to save them from their sins.

 

[Normann]

Calvinism is like...

Two men in the water drowning, the boat pulls up with two life jackets for them, the captain says to the crew, toss one life jacket to the guy with blue eyes; the one with brown eyes, just let him drown; I don't like him.

Calvinism accuses God of being hatred, cruel and un-just.

The truth is...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

I will answer your question with a Bible verse:

"Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent." Rev. 2:20-21

Now, was it God's fault that Jezebel won't be saved, or was it her fault because she didn't repent?

And was it God's will that she should perish in her sin, or was it her will to die in sin without God?

Again, I will remind you of this: God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim. 2:4

It can't get any clearer than this.

Please keep something in mind: Just because it is God's will that sinners who die in their sin will not receive salvation, that doesn't mean it wasn't His will to save them from their sins.

So just how can God judge and condemn any sinner if His will is only to save ?

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinism is like...

Two men in the water drowning, the boat pulls up with two life jackets for them, the captain says to the crew, toss one life jacket to the guy with blue eyes; the one with brown eyes, just let him drown; I don't like him.

Calvinism accuses God of being hatred, cruel and un-just.

The truth is...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

false .............. more lies!

 

[ContraMundum]

Well then, you obviously don't agree with this verse then, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures." 2Pt. 3:16

Now what do you think Peter meant by "destruction"?

Brother, I appreciate you, but don't candy-coat the gospel. Jesus didn't, and we shouldn't either.

People will lose their salvation because they have rejected scripture. Rejecting the word of God is the same as rejecting God Himself, since He inspired it. 2Tim. 3:16

And many will fall away from the faith because they have been deceived by their own self-conceit. Matt. 7:21-23

Sure, I believe what Peter says, but I don't think it applies to this situation per se. There is a such thing as heterodoxy, and it has never been considered a unforgivable sin.

As for candy-coating the Gospel, you're absolutely right. Let's also not lose sight of the Gospel when judging the doctrine of others. Don't forget a man can be wrong about many things, and these things may be rubbish, but the man himself can still be saved. (1 Cor 3:15)

However, I will add that comment that Hyper-Calvinism is in fact cultic heresy and could possibly effect one's salvation.

 

[ContraMundum]

So just how can God judge and condemn any sinner if His will is only to save ?

I think the verses cited indicate something else, to be fair, and in response to your question directed at wooba-

a) It is also God's will that all unbelievers will perish. (Mk 16:16) This is clearly God's sovereign decree.

b) i) There is no verse anywhere in scripture that directly states that God's will is to reprobate sinners unto eternal destruction. (yes, we can discuss Pharaoh etc)

ii) We have verses that say God wills that all be saved, and that His Son died for all, and verses that speak of His offer of repentance that can be rejected.

iii) Where is an equally clear verse that speaks of reprobation and a selective decree to eternal damnation in Hell?

Seeing these undisputed facts, is it possible that:

a) Men have free will over things God has in His sovereign grace allowed them to have free will in?

b) Grace is resistable in certain cases, according to His sovereign will?

Just some discussion points. I'm interested in a non-partisan discussion here.

 

[woobadooba]

So just how can God judge and condemn any sinner if His will is only to save ?

Do you want the truth or not?

It seems to me that you don't!

 

[woobadooba]

As for candy-coating the Gospel, you're absolutely right. Let's also not lose sight of the Gospel when judging the doctrine of others. Don't forget a man can be wrong about many things, and these things may be rubbish, but the man himself can still be saved. (1 Cor 3:15)

All I'm saying is that if we show them what the truth is, and they reject it, and go on to believe the heresy that they've been indoctrinated by, they are lost.

And I'm confident that they will not inherit the kingdom of God in this frame of mind, because they only show themselves to be enemies of the gospel, rather than those who are just simply innocently confused.

God will show mercy to those who do not know better; but to those who ought to know better, who have eyes, but refuse to see, and ears, but refuse to listen, their fate is the lake of fire.

This is what the Bible teaches us about the fate of heretics, if they don't repent.

 

[MbiaJc]

I'll give you one right now:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim. 2:4-5

But of course, you will deny the obvious and assume meaning on this passage that is contrary to what it really says.

After all, that is the Calvin way!

The debate is not whether God our Savior desires all men to be saved. It is whether He died for all siners no holes bared. Which common sense will tell you He didn't. He died for those that will believe.

If He died for all no holes barred, all men would be saved whether they believed or not.

 

[woobadooba]

The debate is not whether God our Savior desires all men to be saved. It is whether He died for all siners no holes bared. Which common sense will tell you He didn't. He died for those that will believe.

If He died for all no holes barred, all men would be saved whether they believed or not.

If you use common sense when reading that passage, which says God would have all men to be saved, then you would see that it necessarily follows that God died for all men. But that doesn't mean all men will be saved.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to understand. It doesn't make God any less powerful because sinners refuse to be saved whom He died for.

I suppose the reason why it is hard for you to understand is because unlike God, you wouldn't die for your enemies unless you knew for sure they would give you something in return for your sacrifice.

Sorry, but that isn't love!

 

[MbiaJc]

If you use common sense when reading that passage, which says God would have all men to be saved, then you would see that it necessarily follows that God died for all men. But that doesn't mean all men will be saved.

I don't know why this is so hard for you people to understand. It doesn't make God any less powerful because sinners refuse to be saved whom He died for.

I suppose the reason why it is hard for you to understand is because unlike God, you wouldn't die for your enemies unless you knew for sure they would give you something in return for your sacrifice.

Sorry, but that isn't love!

Sorry but aparently you don't know what love is. Also you read scripture, with your preconceived ideas form your man made doctrine. That you have been taught by man not God.

No body is saying it is not God's will that all be saved, however again that not the debate, keep to the topic and quit trying to spin. This is the no spin zone.

Quit spinning and just give one scripture that says Jesus died for all sinners, no holes barred. or admit you are wrong because you are in over your head.

 

[MbiaJc]

All I'm saying is that if we show them what the truth is, and they reject it, and go on to believe the heresy that they've been indoctrinated by, they are lost.

And I'm confident that they will not inherit the kingdom of God in this frame of mind, because they only show themselves to be enemies of the gospel, rather than those who are just simply innocently confused.

God will show mercy to those who do not know better; but to those who ought to know better, who have eyes, but refuse to see, and ears, but refuse to listen, their fate is the lake of fire.

This is what the Bible teaches us about the fate of heretics, if they don't repent.

woobadooba you are showing your doctrine of men, and how little you know about the scriptures, by judging anothers salvation. Our Lord Jesus is the only one that has that right.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think the verses cited indicate something else, to be fair, and in response to your question directed at wooba-

a) It is also God's will that all unbelievers will perish. (Mk 16:16) This is clearly God's sovereign decree.

At long last a sensible straight answer .............. Thankyou!

 

[cygnusx1]

Sorry but aparently you don't know what love is. Also you read scripture, with your preconceived ideas form your man made doctrine. That you have been taught by man not God.

How true that is , for years I heard repeated over and over again that man has a free-will , that God wants everyone saved but men will not allow God what He wills , they will not let God do what He desires to do.That God has a perfect plan for everyone but it all depends upon YoU.(Predestination was never mentioned , it was Taboo)

And so I came under this teaching without knowing any different , I accepted it because it was spoken by Pastors it must be true .......... "God will not force anyone " "The Holy Spirit is the perfect Gentleman" etc etc etc ...........

and so I came to understand 'a God' who is soft , weak , and angry because He cannot get his own way .......... 'a God' who is as likely to save you as damn you if you don't stay saved by your own efforts.......

then something happened to change all that...............

 

[edie19]

and so I came to understand 'a God' who is soft , weak , and angry because He cannot get his own way .......... 'a God' who is as likely to save you as damn you if you don't stay saved by your own efforts.......

For me it wasn't "a God" who was angry because he couldn't get His way, it was "a God" who was sitting up in heaven wringing His hands, worrying "oh dear, why won't they choose me?"

 

[cygnusx1]

For me it wasn't "a God" who was angry because he couldn't get His way, it was "a God" who was sitting up in heaven wringing His hands, worrying "oh dear, why won't they choose me?"

yes I agree Sister , I was speaking about after the ''hand wringing'' ............ then comes the anger because men wouldn't let God have His own way , they stopped Him.

 

[woobadooba]

Sorry but aparently you don't know what love is. Also you read scripture, with your preconceived ideas form your man made doctrine. That you have been taught by man not God.

No body is saying it is not God's will that all be saved, however again that not the debate, keep to the topic and quit trying to spin. This is the no spin zone.

Quit spinning and just give one scripture that says Jesus died for all sinners, no holes barred. or admit you are wrong because you are in over your head.

You know, Jn. 3:16 makes this very clear.

You see, the problem here isn't that I don't have any scriptural support for what I believe, but that you aren't willing to accept what scripture has to say on the matter.

Mark my words, one day God is going to call you into account for this.

 

[woobadooba]

woobadooba you are showing your doctrine of men, and how little you know about the scriptures, by judging anothers salvation. Our Lord Jesus is the only one that has that right.

But I'm not judging anyone of my own accord. When someone is teaching heresy, doesn't the Bible inform us that we need to expose him/her?

And I find it to be interesting that you tell me not to judge, while judging me for judging others.

Isn't that hypocritical?

 

[ContraMundum]

At long last a sensible straight answer .............. Thankyou!

Thanks, but perhaps you could provide me a sensible straight answer to my questions too? Would be that be cool?

If you agree with me on all points that's fine too.