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If God was so hung-up on predestining the "wicked" or the "lost" to perdition, He would not have said through the prophet Ezekiel that He wished the wicked would repent.
Our choices come into it. I suppose this has particular import for me personally, as I've said ad infinitum that the night my father died, he turned up in my room. We talked and argued, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream, and then promptly disappeared. It was obvious something was coming for him and he was horror-struck by whatever it was.
At one point he said, with some alarm "I alway was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!" I arged back, although I was an atheist, saying "That can't be right!"
He replied "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!"
But later in the same conversation he admitted "I was WILLING!" (I'd say very willing) to act in the cruel, stupid, bad-tempered, vindictive way he did toward his own family and to keep it up for 20 years.
His own free choice came into it.
Did God see Him, in His unbounded "now" always acting like this and thus make a decision that he was doomed?
If so, my father was "willing" to act in that way.
Personally I think he's in Hell, although I suspect some Cathoics would prefer to think he's in Purgatory, but they didn't see the scream. In any case by the teachings of the church itself, he fulfilled the requirements to be condemned.
He even said so himself. At one point he said "Son, you've got to forgive me!" I wasn't impressed and snarled back "You treated me like dirt for 20 years and now you want forgiveness!"
(PS - I added this bit after my original post, but it was part of our conversation viz. He replied "It's not for me! It's for you!" ).
He could see I didn't believe him and so he continued "... Son, you've got to believe me! If you don't forgive me, you'll destroy yourself." Then he went on "It's too late for me! All I was expected to do was to look after my own family and I didn't even do that!"
I don't care what other people think. I remember the exchange which took place on the night of 11th January 1979 like it was yesterday and that was 43 years ago. In another five weeks or so it will be 44 years.
As far as I'm concerned "Predestination" is mixed up with our being "Willing".
I think Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin are in Hell for that matter, and most likely they were predestined to go there, but the fact they were perfectly willing to murder millions of people will be part of God's judgement on them, which He no doubt foresaw from the beginning, even if God "took no pleasure" in their destruction. I don't think God liked watching the Gulags or the Concentration camps either, any more than He enjoys seeing every single abortion being performed. It might just be an "ethical" or "legal" issue for some politicians, but for God it's a lot more personal and obscene than that!
As CS Lewis put it in one of his essays, "the greatest sins are committed by men who sit in offices with clean hands". Some modern politicans could take note. They'll be held to account for far greater sins than those of my father.
When they stand in front of the judgment seat, they will see very clearly that they were "WILLING", even if they had "clean hands" themselves.
(PS Again - I might add the phrase about "It's not for me! It's for you!" implies that when we forgive someone, it may not be for their benefit. Christ was prepared to forgive those who were responsible for His crucifixion, but there isn't much evidence that any of them repented. So perhaps in some way it was for "Him", despite the fact He was God the Son, and quite possibly not for "them".)
Ezekiel 33:11 NIV
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
Our choices come into it. I suppose this has particular import for me personally, as I've said ad infinitum that the night my father died, he turned up in my room. We talked and argued, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream, and then promptly disappeared. It was obvious something was coming for him and he was horror-struck by whatever it was.
At one point he said, with some alarm "I alway was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!" I arged back, although I was an atheist, saying "That can't be right!"
He replied "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!"
But later in the same conversation he admitted "I was WILLING!" (I'd say very willing) to act in the cruel, stupid, bad-tempered, vindictive way he did toward his own family and to keep it up for 20 years.
His own free choice came into it.
Did God see Him, in His unbounded "now" always acting like this and thus make a decision that he was doomed?
If so, my father was "willing" to act in that way.
Personally I think he's in Hell, although I suspect some Cathoics would prefer to think he's in Purgatory, but they didn't see the scream. In any case by the teachings of the church itself, he fulfilled the requirements to be condemned.
He even said so himself. At one point he said "Son, you've got to forgive me!" I wasn't impressed and snarled back "You treated me like dirt for 20 years and now you want forgiveness!"
(PS - I added this bit after my original post, but it was part of our conversation viz. He replied "It's not for me! It's for you!" ).
He could see I didn't believe him and so he continued "... Son, you've got to believe me! If you don't forgive me, you'll destroy yourself." Then he went on "It's too late for me! All I was expected to do was to look after my own family and I didn't even do that!"
I don't care what other people think. I remember the exchange which took place on the night of 11th January 1979 like it was yesterday and that was 43 years ago. In another five weeks or so it will be 44 years.
As far as I'm concerned "Predestination" is mixed up with our being "Willing".
I think Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin are in Hell for that matter, and most likely they were predestined to go there, but the fact they were perfectly willing to murder millions of people will be part of God's judgement on them, which He no doubt foresaw from the beginning, even if God "took no pleasure" in their destruction. I don't think God liked watching the Gulags or the Concentration camps either, any more than He enjoys seeing every single abortion being performed. It might just be an "ethical" or "legal" issue for some politicians, but for God it's a lot more personal and obscene than that!
As CS Lewis put it in one of his essays, "the greatest sins are committed by men who sit in offices with clean hands". Some modern politicans could take note. They'll be held to account for far greater sins than those of my father.
When they stand in front of the judgment seat, they will see very clearly that they were "WILLING", even if they had "clean hands" themselves.
(PS Again - I might add the phrase about "It's not for me! It's for you!" implies that when we forgive someone, it may not be for their benefit. Christ was prepared to forgive those who were responsible for His crucifixion, but there isn't much evidence that any of them repented. So perhaps in some way it was for "Him", despite the fact He was God the Son, and quite possibly not for "them".)
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