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Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    State a coherent point you are making in regard to specific Scripture.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Coherent point stated with scripture here #291

    - then you asked me to "explain it" as if you had a problem-- so I had it highlighted for ease of reading. as pointed out here -- #317

    When I quote Romans 2 you argue against the texts saying that I don't understand Romans 1-3 as if that would make me "quote Romans 2" ???

    As we saw here #296 and here #301 -- you are not engaging the points raised in #291

    "Now" you bring up "coherent point"?? seriously?

    you have free will and can ignore #291 all you wish. But the rest of us are free to see the point.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Or maybe you don't understand what it says.

    "It is those who keep the law that are justified" can mean two things.

    What are they?
     
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Which has multiple points. . .to which are you referring?
    You stated I thought it was a "bad thing."
    What are you talking about?
    Romans 2 contains many points. To which are you referring?

    I argue against your misunderstanding of the texts in light of the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 which is demonstrating that all mankind--Gentile and Jew alike--are unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).
    What points? There are many points in those Scriptures. To which are you referring?
    As serious as a heart attack. . .for some weird reason you won't state what your point is that I may address it.

    I don't know what your game is, but I do not care to engage about the argument, I will engage only the argument itself.

    Present a coherent argument that I may examine it.

    Free will is not the issue in the NT. The issue is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

    The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
    (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

    "That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

    So God works in the disposition giving one to understand and prefer the things that come from the Spirit of God, which man then freely and willingly receives and believes.

    God uses, not violates, the will in bringing men to saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  5. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    Welp, there ya go. We can end the thread and the bickering now :)

    Just a thought going back to your original point: Regardless of what you think about predestination, it's in the bible. We have to deal with it. I find the prescient view to be....more focused on me and my will rather than God and his purposes, but that view has already been discussed. The Bible talks about seeking, finding, etc. of course. But how do we balance that scale? The Bible also constantly talks about Spirit and flesh. The natural man and the spiritual man. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned. A man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Son of man, can these dry bones live? I can't cause my soul to live. God must do it. Other posters have already talked about Romans 3:11 where no one seeks God. The point is no one seeks God apart from God drawing Him. The nature has to change. The disposition of the heart has to change. He predestines us, and we seek Him after He has caused us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3). There is no need to pit the two against each other. He chooses us and we call upon the name of the Lord.

    Calvinism is not reduced to "winners and losers". That's human reasoning.

    I can keep going but here's where I'm at with it. If you want to believe in free will, go ahead. But be fair with your portrayal of brothers and sisters who disagree with you. You wouldn't like me saying that you must have just been smart enough to make the right choice to go to heaven. That poor other chap was just to dumb to choose God. After all, the ball was in his court right?

    To all: The doctrines of grace are not stupid. They are glorious. If you want to believe in free will, you may choose to do so if you wish :) But your reformed brothers are trying to be faithful with God's word, just as you are. I see God moving first....and I'm not saying that to stoke the fires of this thread. I'm saying that because there is an orthodox understanding of scripture that defends that- The depravity of man and the holiness of God. Until you begin to see more of man's sinfulness and more of God's holiness, of course the grace doctrines will never make sense. But they do make sense to a great many of brothers and sisters. And reducing it to robots, winners, dogs getting kicked around, etc.. doesn't help the discussion. After all, at one point I would have been considered a gentile dog, unworthy of salvation. But God...(Ephesians 2).
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    A. It starts out with your own claim that no success examples are shown in Rom 2.
    B. The post 291 highlights success examples in Rom 2.

    How is this not the "easy" part??
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    What points? The verses in #291 highlighted as a direct response to your claim of no success examples in Rom 2.

    Then specifically referenced in #300

    Since #291 it is "just a quote of the text" - it is pretty hard to make that "your misunderstanding" comment unless the text itself is your issue.

    (I pointed that out in another post already #301 )

    no wait!

    ok now I get it.

    I think our discussion is getting stuck just as pointed out here - #326
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    "IF we wish"?? Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot - giving us all free will?
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Well if that is how you view those verses above --- then it helps to know your POV

    1/3 of the Angels fell along with Lucifer
    1. None of them had a sinful nature
    2. None of them were low IQ

    The resort to "people only make bad choices if they have a low IQ" idea does not work on planet Earth - and did not work in heaven. Arminians don't use that idea and I don't think Calvinists argue that the angels in heaven were too depraved to make good choices - or that God programmed them to fail.

    And as the first post above that I just quoted shows - God can't be blamed for it either.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  10. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    I think you may have missed the tone there, friend. I can only hope that's not all you gathered from what I said.
     
  11. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    If that's how I view which verses?

    Why are we comparing unfallen angels (we did this with Adam in the garden earlier) to man in a fallen state now? I'm not arguing that, and I'm confused as to why you think I am. If you're arguing that we all are in the same state as Adam pre-fall, that's Pelagianism brother. Not good.

    For the record, Post #325 was an attempt to be reconciliatory. I was actually saying Calvinists should steer clear of that reasoning in the same way that their Arminian brothers use the robots, dogs, puppets, etc. You may exercise your will and read it again if you wish.
     
  12. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    Regardless of our different interpretations of the scripture, I love my brothers in Christ. This I hope is something we can all agree to.
     
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  13. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I agree...because man has no free will to violate due to the enslaving addictive quality of sin. When HE disposes of man without consulting his desires or will it is a disposing against man's sinful, evil, criminal will, which has no disvalue. We delight in the disposition of the Satanic to be banished to the outer darkness against their will, eh?

    So either
    1. we believe sinners have a free will but GOD's interference with that free will to get them to repent and to bring them to faith (or to their destruction) is not a contradiction though that sounds like a deep doublethink, ignoring the meaning of being enslaved to sin,
    or
    2. we had or time of free will before the foundation of the world when we were elected and when the good seed (elect) chose to rebel against HIS command to come out from among the satanic so they could be judged and they would not.

    This sin cost them their free will and they became enslaved, addicted to evil, the condition they were in when they were conceived as man, (ie sown into the world), to be able to come under the redeeming one death for all, and so they could live with the reprobate satanic and learn the great evil of their idolatrous support for them and so come to repent of their own sin and to hate the eternal sinfulness of the reprobate.

    Their free will is only restored by their rebirth as a new person in Christ.
     
  14. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    And as long our interpretations are orthodox (which both Calvinism and Arminianism are), I totally agree. This is what my heart yearns for on internet discussions. Thanks for that brother
     
  15. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Does not address why. Need not read "free will" in between the lines. Romans 9 says it does not depend on man's desires or efforts. Can a man desire to have faith, but not have it? Most certainly; faith comes from God: John 6:37-52 and Ephesians 2:8

    Right, because the name is there. Rev 17:8 and Rev 20:15 both state that the names of the damned are "not found" or "not written" into the book of life.
     
  16. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Luther and other theologians already addressed ALL of these examples over 500 years ago; but even before delving into their answers, one thing is crystal clear: The examples you're using do not address why some have faith and others don't, and thus only suggest free-will due to missing contexts that are clearly displayed in other verses, of which I have provided (in part). Most importantly, we cannot and should not ignore Scripture; as it leads to idolatry (that is, specifically, fashioning a god from it that we're willing to worship RATHER THAN the God of His Word).

    Semi-Pelagianism is heresy and we should have absolutely no part in attempts to resurrect it, but I am afraid it more than has a pulse.
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    What is are "success" examples? I don't find that word anywhere in the texts you posted. Are you adding to the Scriptures?
    I don't know what is meant by your non-Biblical terminology.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Then feel free to address the following:

    Free will is not the issue in the NT.
    The issue in the NT is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

    The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
    (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

    "That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

    Therefore, God works in the disposition, giving one to understand and prefer the things that come from the Spirit of God, which man then freely and willingly receives and believes.

    So God uses, not violates, the will in bringing men to saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The NT is not in agreement. . .it continually exhorts mankind to choose.

    Man has limited moral power to choose the good. He cannot choose to be sinless, but he can and does choose much good.
    However, sinlessness is required for righteousness.
    "Slave to sin" means inability to be free from all sin.
    "No disvalue" is a double negative meaning "value." Why not just say "value"?
    This is heresy.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Well this "IS" a change from the Romans 2 subject

    Ok fine - we will "switch" to this topic --

    Since I already addressed it here --

    @98cwitr

    Well in that case then it should now be very very easy for you to show how this fits the model you propose. So I would say that you are in a great position to respond to the points in that post.

    ====================
    @Clare73

    John 6 has this "context" for John 6:65

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day

    65 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

    God's drawing is evidence of His granting -- in John 6.

    In John 12:32 Christ declares that God sovereignly "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Me" - without exception.

    Many Calvinists will admit that the supernatural drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity "disables". And God Draws ALL -- not "just the few" or "Just an arbitrarily select FEW"

    Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
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