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Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Adam had free will, the moral power to make all good moral choices.

    He forfeited that power in his rebellion, and we inherit his limited power to make all good moral choices, as well as a disposition to sin and self, rather than to God.
     
  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    But confounding it is what you’re doing. James seeks to bring balance where some people were already putting the cart ahead of the horse regarding justification. Speaking specifically of faith he tells us that even demons believe, and that Abraham’s “faith and his actions were working together”, “his faith was made complete by what he did.” That's true understanding. And then continues:
    “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.“

    Paul agrees:
    For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13

    And Rom 3:21, 3:28, & 4:5 all agree as well. Paul, was speaking of real, personal righteousness given, rather than personal righteousness now suddenly excused or replaced by faith.
    Yes they do, as long as one doesn’t go to the extreme of having it mean that humans are moral puppets, a concept that would pretty much render Scripture and the gospel purposeless-and at odds with the overall message contained in both.
     
  3. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    When Adam and Eve were formed in the garden, they hadn't yet fell into sin. Adam had a free will, and when he and Eve freely ate from the tree they were told not to, their natures fell. That's why men are born dead in sins and trespasses, because the sin of Adam is passed on to every man/woman born under the sun.

    Therefore, it doesn't do any good to compare man's nature now (fallen) to Adam's nature then (unfallen).
     
  4. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    No respectable Calvinist/reformed person actually does this. Just because by human reasoning standards it sounds like "robotic puppets", doesn't mean that's how it appears to God. Consistent Calvinists will obey the commands of God, they just don't believe their obedience works to atone for their sins.
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Faith must have works or it isn't faith, it's just intellectual assent. So Abraham already had works, and the Scriptures state (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-5) that God credited righteousness to him, apart from those works, when he believed the promise, not 17 years later when his faith was made full, perfect (complete).
    "Considered" righteous has nothing to do with God.

    God makes righteous by crediting the righteousness of Jesus Christ to one through faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-5; Genesis 15:6).
    Oh, wow!

    First you misrepresent Romans 4:5, 3:21, 3:28 as works being replaced by faith, rather than apart from the faith of which they are a component, and then you totally misunderstand Romans 2:13 and personal righteousness.

    In context, Paul is demonstrating just the opposite in Romans 2:13.
    Because only those who obey the law will be declared righteous, all mankind is declared unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10) for imperfect law keeping and, therefore, "all who rely on the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)

    Nor does there exist any personal righteousness when God gives one the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19) through faith apart from its works (Romans 4:2-5).
    "Moral puppets" goes to the will.

    Freedom of the will is not the issue in the NT. The issue is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.
    Unregenerate mankind cannot receive the gospel and come to God (John 6:65) because they cannot understand it, find it foolish
    (1 Corinthians 2:14) and want no part of foolishness.
    God must work in man's disposition, causing him to understand and prefer the things of God, which he then freely and willingly chooses.

    God uses, not violates, the will to bring those to himself (John 6:65) by altering their disposition which governs their will.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  6. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    I suspect that there is much disagreement among Calvinists on this view. The circle debate continues. Faith-Work, Work, Faith, Fall from Grace, Once Saved Always Saved. Man will not settle these views. I will continue to believe that man has free will to accept Christ and obey his word or chose death. I cannot agree that God has picked winners and losers before they were born. Of course, he knows how we will choose. I believe we can fall from grace and lose salvation because if not so there would be no need to remove us from the book of life. Rev 22
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Free will is not the issue in the NT. The issue is one's disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

    Unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
    (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he wants no part of foolishness. . .not gonna' happen.
    God works in man's disposition so that the gospel is no longer foolish, but compelling and preferable to him, which preference man willingly and freely chooses.
    God uses, not violates, man's will in bringing man to him
    Apart from this work of God within man's disposition, there is no receiving and believing the gospel.
    Is that based on your personal preference or on the teaching of the whole counsel of God?

    You can't be a loser unless you are in the "race" (the church).
    The unregenerate are not in the "race" and, therefore, they can lose nothing.
    Read it again. . .they aren't "removed," they are "not found" in the Book of Life because they were never there in the first place.
     
  8. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Predestination to salvation and the heavenly marriage is a promise fulfilled in the sinful, (ie, no free will) elect by HIS gift of grace and faith to cause them to seek and to answer the door, among other things.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Good dog trainer -- but not all dogs work out that way.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"

    Ok so one option where He is not arbitrary or partial - and another where He is??
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Depends on whether you call "eternal life" - being "lost"

    Rom 2
    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    ... 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

    ...
    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

    ================

    BOTH the failing AND the succeeding examples are given

    Hopefully -- these details in the actual text will not simply be "dismissed"
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    I agree that is a good question.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    As I understand it - there are two basic future scenarios --


    ===============================
    The future scenario of the Arminian texts in the Bible -

    One day you get to heaven and discover that your precious daughter did not go to heaven - so weeping and in anguish you go to Christ and say "oh my Savior couldn't you have done SOMETHING to save my precious child?" And Jesus will respond - " I loved them I died for them I constantly drew them unto Me - but they refused the gift of eternal life because they were not willing to die to self and at last I let them go to follow their heart".

    ==============================

    The future scenario of some forms of Calvinism

    One day you get to heaven and discover that your precious daughter did not go to heaven - so weeping and in anguish you go to Christ and say "oh my Savior couldn't you have done SOMETHING to save my precious child?"

    And Jesus will respond - "of course I COULD have IF I had cared to"

    And you respond "but how can you call that - 'God so loved THE WORLD that He GAVE?' " --

    And in that scenario He is supposed to respond "do not worry your little head about it - run along and have a nice nice day"

    ===============================

    And "That" is one of the many reasons some Arminians do not consider Calvinism much of an option

    These are "other" reasons ...

    Monday at 12:59 PM #254
    Monday at 1:03 PM #255

    Monday at 10:03 PM #272
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    So it is not pointless exercise for the man, just as it is not pointless exercise for God.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Okay. . .God is not partial in administering justice, he gives everyone what they are owed.

    He owes redemption to no one, therefore, there is no partial justice taking place in choosing some for redemption.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    However, you don't understand what the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 is, and your understanding of the above, being totally out of context, is incorrect.

    So please specify what your points are in the above and the text you are using, that I may address your points there, for there are many points made in the above Scriptures.
     
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Our Lord tells those who already believe in Him to knock, seek, etc. Revelation 3:20 is in the letter to the Church in Laodicea, it is addressed to believing Christians. These believing Christians have kicked Christ out of the house--as it were--in their lukewarm status of comfort. That is why He calls on them to open the door so that He may come in and sup with them once more. He tells them that they brag of their comforts and wealth, but says they should instead ask Him for pure gold and silver refined in fire.

    What we can gather, by context, is the following:

    St. John was exiled to the island of Patmos by the Roman authorities, and so he was in essence a prisoner. We aren't certain who this particular John is (different opinions have existed since the earliest centuries of Christianity), but the fact that he wrote to the seven churches located in the Roman province of Asia gives us a clue that he was clearly someone whose voice mattered among those churches. In his Apocalypse there are seven "mini" epistles to those seven churches, and the circumstances in each were different. One thing that most of them have in common is that they are suffering, there are false teachers, and also they are facing persecution. But the Church in Laodicea is different, they aren't suffering, but in fact they seem to be doing quite well--at least materially speaking. They aren't suffering persecution like their brethren around them, and they aren't living in poverty either, as Jesus charges them with bragging about being rich. So He tells them to purchase true silver and gold, refined in fire, to let Him back in that He might dine with them.

    The word to the Laocideans isn't to non-Christians, but to Christians. And thus serves as a potent reminder to us, that we not forsake our first love. That we do not allow our comforts in this life lead us to lives of complacency and push Christ out from His place as Head and Master of the Household. It is His Table that we sit at, not our own table. We are His. But He reminds them, and also us, that the chastising word He speaks He speaks not out of anger or malice, but in love. "I chastise those whom I love", He is the Good Shepherd, and we are the sheep of His pasture, and if He uses the shepherd's crook to pull us back, He does not do so to harm, but to keep us safe with Him.

    In the same way, "Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened" are statements the Lord makes to those with faith, not those who are without faith. The faithless do not seek, nor do they knock. Christ speaks to His listeners as a people who already believe in God, they are already listening in earnest, they are already there at Christ's feet. He says to them to seek, to knock--by which He means to call us to abide in Him, to walk in His way, and to take God's kingdom seriously.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    And yet His justice is "revealed from faith to faith", it is His justice that we, the unjust, are made just by His grace.

    Justice isn't about giving what a person is owed. Justice is about making things right. That can be a just compensation, for example when a widow is taken advantage of by a conman, and the judge orders the widow to be repayed in full--that is justice. But justice is also when the judge shows leniency. It is also justice when the king grants full pardon.

    God's justice is revealed from faith to faith, the Apostle writes. So that "the just shall walk by faith". That is the Justice of the Gospel, the Justice by which God justifies the unjust.

    God's justice is not cold, but warm and compassionate. It is His compassionate, merciful justice that Christ comes into the world, to fulfill all justice and then, suffering the death of all men, reckons all justified (Romans 5:18). This very same objective justification is made our personal justification by the grace of God, through faith. It is Christ's justice that renders us just--and therefore justified.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Freedom of the will is not the issue in the NT.

    The issue is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.
    Unregenerate man does not come to God because he cannot understand the things of the Holy Spirit, they are foolishness to him
    (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he will have no part of foolishness. . .not gonna happen!

    God works in man's disposition, giving him an understanding and preference for the things of the Holy Spirit,
    to which preference he willingly and freely responds and chooses to come to God.
    God uses, he does not violate, man's free will.

    The issue is man's disposition which governs the will, it is not the will.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    I notice that Paul gives both failing successful examples in Romans 2 - and you aren't responding to the details in the text posted here -- #291
    How is it in any way unclear??

    How in the world is "glory, honor, peace" and "eternal life" in Romans 2 presented as a "bad thing" in your view?? It is as Paul says "according to the Gospel" Rom 2:16
     
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