Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

BobRyan

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State a coherent point you are making in regard to specific Scripture.
Coherent point stated with scripture here #291

- then you asked me to "explain it" as if you had a problem-- so I had it highlighted for ease of reading. as pointed out here -- #317

When I quote Romans 2 you argue against the texts saying that I don't understand Romans 1-3 as if that would make me "quote Romans 2" ???

As we saw here #296 and here #301 -- you are not engaging the points raised in #291

"Now" you bring up "coherent point"?? seriously?

you have free will and can ignore #291 all you wish. But the rest of us are free to see the point.
 
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Clare73

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or maybe Romans 2 just means what it says.. even when highlighted.
Or maybe you don't understand what it says.

"It is those who keep the law that are justified" can mean two things.

What are they?
 
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Clare73

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Coherent point stated with scripture here #291
Which has multiple points. . .to which are you referring?
- then you asked me to "explain it" as if you had a problem-- so I had it highlighted for ease of reading. as pointed out here -- #317
You stated I thought it was a "bad thing."
What are you talking about?
When I quote Romans 2 you argue against the texts saying that I don't understand Romans 1-3 as if that would make me "quote Romans 2" ???
Romans 2 contains many points. To which are you referring?

I argue against your misunderstanding of the texts in light of the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 which is demonstrating that all mankind--Gentile and Jew alike--are unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).
As we saw here #296 and here #301 -- you are not engaging the points raised in #291.
What points? There are many points in those Scriptures. To which are you referring?
"Now" you bring up "coherent point"?? seriously?
As serious as a heart attack. . .for some weird reason you won't state what your point is that I may address it.

I don't know what your game is, but I do not care to engage about the argument, I will engage only the argument itself.

Present a coherent argument that I may examine it.

you have free will and can ignore #291 all you wish. But the rest of us are free to see the point.
Free will is not the issue in the NT. The issue is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
(1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

"That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

So God works in the disposition giving one to understand and prefer the things that come from the Spirit of God, which man then freely and willingly receives and believes.

God uses, not violates, the will in bringing men to saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
 
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HosannaHM

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I suspect that there is much disagreement among Calvinists on this view. The circle debate continues. Faith-Work, Work, Faith, Fall from Grace, Once Saved Always Saved. Man will not settle these views. I will continue to believe that man has free will to accept Christ and obey his word or chose death. I cannot agree that God has picked winners and losers before they were born. Of course, he knows how we will choose. I believe we can fall from grace and lose salvation because if not so there would be no need to remove us from the book of life. Rev 22

Welp, there ya go. We can end the thread and the bickering now :)

Just a thought going back to your original point: Regardless of what you think about predestination, it's in the bible. We have to deal with it. I find the prescient view to be....more focused on me and my will rather than God and his purposes, but that view has already been discussed. The Bible talks about seeking, finding, etc. of course. But how do we balance that scale? The Bible also constantly talks about Spirit and flesh. The natural man and the spiritual man. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned. A man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Son of man, can these dry bones live? I can't cause my soul to live. God must do it. Other posters have already talked about Romans 3:11 where no one seeks God. The point is no one seeks God apart from God drawing Him. The nature has to change. The disposition of the heart has to change. He predestines us, and we seek Him after He has caused us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3). There is no need to pit the two against each other. He chooses us and we call upon the name of the Lord.

Calvinism is not reduced to "winners and losers". That's human reasoning.

I can keep going but here's where I'm at with it. If you want to believe in free will, go ahead. But be fair with your portrayal of brothers and sisters who disagree with you. You wouldn't like me saying that you must have just been smart enough to make the right choice to go to heaven. That poor other chap was just to dumb to choose God. After all, the ball was in his court right?

To all: The doctrines of grace are not stupid. They are glorious. If you want to believe in free will, you may choose to do so if you wish :) But your reformed brothers are trying to be faithful with God's word, just as you are. I see God moving first....and I'm not saying that to stoke the fires of this thread. I'm saying that because there is an orthodox understanding of scripture that defends that- The depravity of man and the holiness of God. Until you begin to see more of man's sinfulness and more of God's holiness, of course the grace doctrines will never make sense. But they do make sense to a great many of brothers and sisters. And reducing it to robots, winners, dogs getting kicked around, etc.. doesn't help the discussion. After all, at one point I would have been considered a gentile dog, unworthy of salvation. But God...(Ephesians 2).
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Coherent point stated with scripture here #291

Which has multiple points. . .to which are you referring?

A. It starts out with your own claim that no success examples are shown in Rom 2.
B. The post 291 highlights success examples in Rom 2.

How is this not the "easy" part??
 
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BobRyan

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I argue against your misunderstanding of the texts in light of the context of Romans 1:18-3:20 which is demonstrating that all mankind--Gentile and Jew alike--are unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).

What points? There are many points in those Scriptures. To which are you referring?

What points? The verses in #291 highlighted as a direct response to your claim of no success examples in Rom 2.

Then specifically referenced in #300

Since #291 it is "just a quote of the text" - it is pretty hard to make that "your misunderstanding" comment unless the text itself is your issue.

(I pointed that out in another post already #301 )

no wait!

I don't know what you consider a "failing successful" example in Romans 2.
I don't know what details you want me to respond to in #291.
I don't know what point you are making in relation to our discussion.

ok now I get it.

I think our discussion is getting stuck just as pointed out here - #326
 
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BobRyan

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To all: The doctrines of grace are not stupid. They are glorious. If you want to believe in free will, you may choose to do so if you wish .

"IF we wish"?? Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot - giving us all free will?
 
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BobRyan

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Is 5:4 - God's lament when He sees Israel in rebellion "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected success did it fail?"

What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

2 Cor 5 - 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

You wouldn't like me saying that you must have just been smart enough to make the right choice to go to heaven. That poor other chap was just to dumb to choose God. After all, the ball was in his court right?

Well if that is how you view those verses above --- then it helps to know your POV

1/3 of the Angels fell along with Lucifer
1. None of them had a sinful nature
2. None of them were low IQ

The resort to "people only make bad choices if they have a low IQ" idea does not work on planet Earth - and did not work in heaven. Arminians don't use that idea and I don't think Calvinists argue that the angels in heaven were too depraved to make good choices - or that God programmed them to fail.

And as the first post above that I just quoted shows - God can't be blamed for it either.
 
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HosannaHM

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"IF we wish"?? Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot - giving us all free will?
I think you may have missed the tone there, friend. I can only hope that's not all you gathered from what I said.
 
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HosannaHM

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Well if that is how you view those verses above --- then it helps to know your POV

1/3 of the Angels fell along with Lucifer
1. None of them had a sinful nature
2. None of them were low IQ

The resort to "people only make bad choices if they have a low IQ" idea does not work on planet Earth - and did not work in heaven. Arminians don't use that idea and I don't think Calvinists argue that the angels in heaven were too depraved to make good choices - or that God programmed them to fail.

And as the first post above that I just quoted shows - God can't be blamed for it either.

If that's how I view which verses?

Why are we comparing unfallen angels (we did this with Adam in the garden earlier) to man in a fallen state now? I'm not arguing that, and I'm confused as to why you think I am. If you're arguing that we all are in the same state as Adam pre-fall, that's Pelagianism brother. Not good.

For the record, Post #325 was an attempt to be reconciliatory. I was actually saying Calvinists should steer clear of that reasoning in the same way that their Arminian brothers use the robots, dogs, puppets, etc. You may exercise your will and read it again if you wish.
 
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TedT

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God works in man's disposition, giving him an understanding and preference for the things of the Holy Spirit,
to which preference he willingly and freely responds and chooses to come to God.
God uses, he does not violate, man's free will.

I agree...because man has no free will to violate due to the enslaving addictive quality of sin. When HE disposes of man without consulting his desires or will it is a disposing against man's sinful, evil, criminal will, which has no disvalue. We delight in the disposition of the Satanic to be banished to the outer darkness against their will, eh?

So either
1. we believe sinners have a free will but GOD's interference with that free will to get them to repent and to bring them to faith (or to their destruction) is not a contradiction though that sounds like a deep doublethink, ignoring the meaning of being enslaved to sin,
or
2. we had or time of free will before the foundation of the world when we were elected and when the good seed (elect) chose to rebel against HIS command to come out from among the satanic so they could be judged and they would not.

This sin cost them their free will and they became enslaved, addicted to evil, the condition they were in when they were conceived as man, (ie sown into the world), to be able to come under the redeeming one death for all, and so they could live with the reprobate satanic and learn the great evil of their idolatrous support for them and so come to repent of their own sin and to hate the eternal sinfulness of the reprobate.

Their free will is only restored by their rebirth as a new person in Christ.
 
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HosannaHM

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Regardless of our different interpretations of the scripture, I love my brothers in Christ. This I hope is something we can all agree to.

And as long our interpretations are orthodox (which both Calvinism and Arminianism are), I totally agree. This is what my heart yearns for on internet discussions. Thanks for that brother
 
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98cwitr

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Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Does not address why. Need not read "free will" in between the lines. Romans 9 says it does not depend on man's desires or efforts. Can a man desire to have faith, but not have it? Most certainly; faith comes from God: John 6:37-52 and Ephesians 2:8

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Right, because the name is there. Rev 17:8 and Rev 20:15 both state that the names of the damned are "not found" or "not written" into the book of life.
 
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98cwitr

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God does not take that dominion as can be seen in John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Which is how Isaiah 5:3-4 scenarios happen -

3 “And now, you inhabitants of Jerusalem and people of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

It is how Matt 23 scenarios happen
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

It is why the Romans 11 warning is so necessary!
Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

It is why Evangelism is in the form of "begging you to be reconciled to God"
2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

It is why the "forgiveness revoked" sermon is preached by Christ in Matt 18
Matt 18: 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Luther and other theologians already addressed ALL of these examples over 500 years ago; but even before delving into their answers, one thing is crystal clear: The examples you're using do not address why some have faith and others don't, and thus only suggest free-will due to missing contexts that are clearly displayed in other verses, of which I have provided (in part). Most importantly, we cannot and should not ignore Scripture; as it leads to idolatry (that is, specifically, fashioning a god from it that we're willing to worship RATHER THAN the God of His Word).

Semi-Pelagianism is heresy and we should have absolutely no part in attempts to resurrect it, but I am afraid it more than has a pulse.
 
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Clare73

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A. It starts out with your own claim that no success examples are shown in Rom 2.
B. The post 291 highlights success examples in Rom 2.
What is are "success" examples? I don't find that word anywhere in the texts you posted. Are you adding to the Scriptures?
How is this not the "easy" part??
I don't know what is meant by your non-Biblical terminology.
 
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Clare73

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What points? The verses in #291 highlighted as a direct response to your claim of no success examples in Rom 2.
Then specifically referenced in #300
Since #291 it is "just a quote of the text" - it is pretty hard to make that "your misunderstanding" comment unless the text itself is your issue.
(I pointed that out in another post already #301 )
no wait!
ok now I get it.
I think our discussion is getting stuck just as pointed out here - #326
Then feel free to address the following:

Free will is not the issue in the NT.
The issue in the NT is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
(1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

"That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Therefore, God works in the disposition, giving one to understand and prefer the things that come from the Spirit of God, which man then freely and willingly receives and believes.

So God uses, not violates, the will in bringing men to saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
 
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Clare73

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I agree...because man has no free will to violate
The NT is not in agreement. . .it continually exhorts mankind to choose.

Man has limited moral power to choose the good. He cannot choose to be sinless, but he can and does choose much good.
However, sinlessness is required for righteousness.
due to the enslaving addictive quality of sin.
"Slave to sin" means inability to be free from all sin.
When HE disposes of man without consulting his desires or will it is a disposing against man's sinful, evil, criminal will, which has
no disvalue.
"No disvalue" is a double negative meaning "value." Why not just say "value"?
We delight in the disposition of the Satanic to be banished to the outer darkness against their will, eh?

So either
1. we believe sinners have a free will but GOD's interference with that free will to get them to repent and to bring them to faith (or to their destruction) is not a contradiction though that sounds like a deep doublethink, ignoring the meaning of being enslaved to sin,
or
2. we had or time of free will before the foundation of the world when we were elected and when the good seed (elect) chose to rebel against HIS command to come out from among the satanic so they could be judged and they would not.
This is heresy.
This sin cost them their free will and they became enslaved, addicted to evil, the condition they were in when they were conceived as man, (ie sown into the world), to be able to come under the redeeming one death for all, and so they could live with the reprobate satanic and learn the great evil of their idolatrous support for them and so come to repent of their own sin and to hate the eternal sinfulness of the reprobate.

Their free will is only restored by their rebirth as a new person in Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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Then feel free to address the following:

Free will is not the issue in the NT.
The issue in the NT is the disposition--one's preferences and likes, which governs the will.

The unregenerate man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him
(1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

"That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Well this "IS" a change from the Romans 2 subject

Ok fine - we will "switch" to this topic --

Since I already addressed it here --

God sovereignly chooses to uphold free will even for sinners , even for His OWN - who choose to reject Him.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Which is how Isaiah 5:3-4 scenarios happen -

3 “And now, you inhabitants of Jerusalem and people of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.t

And yet it is only the "FEW" of Matt 7 on the narrow road and it is the "MANY" of Matt 7 that suffer the second death.

It is how Matt 23 scenarios happen
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

It is why the Romans 11 warning is so necessary!
Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

It is why Evangelism is in the form of "begging you to be reconciled to God"
2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

It is why the "forgiveness revoked" sermon is preached by Christ in Matt 18
Matt 18: 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Luther and other theologians already addressed ALL of these examples over 500 years ago;

@98cwitr

Well in that case then it should now be very very easy for you to show how this fits the model you propose. So I would say that you are in a great position to respond to the points in that post.

====================
@Clare73

John 6 has this "context" for John 6:65

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day

65 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

God's drawing is evidence of His granting -- in John 6.

In John 12:32 Christ declares that God sovereignly "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Me" - without exception.

Many Calvinists will admit that the supernatural drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity "disables". And God Draws ALL -- not "just the few" or "Just an arbitrarily select FEW"

Still as John 1:11 points out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
 
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