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Predestination vs. Free Will

Albion

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The bible teaches both
That's correct, and I've said it myself. The idea that the issue can be solved by pointing to one verse here or another there, while ignoring the rest, just doesn't work.

But that doesn't mean that the Bible is contradictory. The answer can, IMO, be ascertained if we take everything into consideration. When that is done, it seems to me that predestination/election/eternal security win out, even though we all like to fancy ourselves as masters of our own fate (i.e. Free Will). It's human vanity that mainly leads us to that conclusion...and then we attribute it to God! ;)
 
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shnarkle

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Paul points out that what is foreknown is predestined so we automatically think that same question Paul asks, i.e. How can we resist God's will? If one asks this question as an excuse for their sinful behavior it is clearly not an honest question. However, for those who are honestly asking this question Paul doesn't deny the premise, but instead says that we really don't have any right to ask in the first place. He has already established that God is righteous. Paul builds and airtight case in his letter to the Romans, but it is still something that I have struggled with for years.

When Paul states that it is not by will or effort, but God Who shows mercy, I see him making will and effort irrelevant, but he isn't negating the existence of free will anymore than he's negating the existence of effort, but because of Adam's unbelief and disobedience we are essentially only able to make the wrong choice. We can make the right choice, but it is a hollow false choice.

The way I see it is that the only way one can truly choose God is if God reveals Himself to us, but if we look at the story of the fall we see that Adam and Eve hid themselves from God. I think this is a clue to what's going on down to the present day. We have hidden ourselves from God, and the only way for us to truly choose God is for him to reveal himself to us. We can search, but there's something wrong with our hearts until God digs into it and shows us what's really hidden deep down inside. Jeremiah gives one of the clearest descriptions that I know of with, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" Only God can know it and those He chooses to reveal it to. Once that happens I don't see how one can fail to repent from the heart.

Paul doesn't have a doctrine of volunteerism. He has a doctrine of election, and there is nothing we can do to gain his favor. If that were the case we'd be right back to a works based system of salvation. Instead we are his no matter how clueless or lost we become. However, once we are found of God we are no longer lost of clueless anymore.

So if we take as an example, the parable of the good shepherd we see that the good shepherd doesn't ask the lost sheep any questions such as, 'do you regret what you've done with your life?". He doesn't ask if they're ready to pray the sinner's prayer. He just simply picks up the cast sheep and brings him back to the sheepfold. The most salient reason being that it is his sheep. it belongs to him.

I think one of the problems with the debate over free will vs. predestination is that our language tells us that they are opposites, and we assume that they must automatically negate one if the other is true. This isn't necessarily the case. Polar opposites don't negate each other. In fact if one were to suddenly disappear the other one would simultaneously disappear. Wisdom doesn't negate foolishness. Omniscience doesn't negate ignorance. Omnipotence doesn't negate impotence. They just can't exist simultaneously in the same being, at least not absolutely. For me this explains the confusion. So God's predestined foreknowledge may negate, in a sense; his free will. it isn't that he has no free will, but that his will is right in line with his predestined foreknowledge and he has no need or desire to change his mind. It has no effect over our free will. However, I think that there may come a time when some are overpowered by the Holy Spirit. When that time comes the truth is revealed to them, and on some level they lose their free will. In common parlance we would call it a "no-brainer"; a choice that really isn't much of a choice to begin with.
 
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Albion

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Does the age of the poster have a part in why they view one over the other, freewill or predestination?
Just observing the wording of some of the posts.

On average, younger people are less likely to be as well-versed in these kinds of theological fine points as are those people who've had years to study it...if that's what you're referring to.
 
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rick357

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The title of the thread shows our misunderstanding from the start...predestination is not in opposition to free will but instead a means to facilitate free will.
In our flesh which all men have receaved from Adam there is no good thing...we dont seek after God...we know the words but have no idea what they mean...so we make something up.In this state regaurdless of the core will no man can come to God...how does someone who has lived in darkness understand the concept of light.
It takes an outside perspective. God who knows that light since it is him also knows before every man is born how they would react to light being revealed to them.
Some would reject this light and go deeper into darkness while some few would rejoice...yet light is revealed individualy by the scales which cause darkness falling from their eyes.in this way it is impossible for those who can see to ever show tbose with scales what they now see...it must be God who reveals the light.
Back to the will...it is by his forknowledge of our will when presented with light that God has predestined those who would not shrink away to deeper darkness.
So as I stated at the begining predestination facilitates our free will...also it is not by that will we come to God instead he comes to us by knowledge of that will.
 
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Hezekiah Holbrooke

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Here's my view on the issue and it does have some scientific support.

We live in a world created especially created for us as carbon-based creatures. For simplicity's sake let us say that we reside in a five dimensional world. Let us call these dimensions length, width, height, space, and time. There are more but let's keep it simple.

God, the Creator family, created this dimension and put in force the laws of centrifugal force, gravity, magnetism, and all the laws of mathematics and physics. God is not of this dimension though. God resides in a dimension outside of ours which is outside the confines of the laws of physics, space and time.f

Since God is outside the confines of space and time, He always was, is, and always will be. From His vantage point outside space and time, Go is able to see our whole life from beginning to end. Thus, He can see whether or not your life will be underneath His guidance. This I believe is Paul's predestination teachings.

Since God is outside the confines of space, He is able to move freely between dimensions. This explains how the Christ following His resurrection, was able to appear bodily inside the locked room where His followers had gathered. It also explains how Phillip was able to move so far and so quickly following his encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch.

This is not a far-fetched concept. In fact, the concept is well known within the scientific community and was famously utilized in the "Beam me up, Scotty" of Star Trek fame.
 
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Albion

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Since God is outside the confines of space, He is able to move freely between dimensions. This explains how the Christ following His resurrection, was able to appear bodily inside the locked room where His followers had gathered. It also explains how Phillip was able to move so far and so quickly following his encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch.
You may speculate that way when speaking of God...but Philip??
 
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Albion

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Hey, if Scotty can move Captain Kirk and Spock all over the place, God can certainly move Phillip. LOL!

Sure, but I thought you were saying that it is within the power of God--because he is God--to transcend time and space. That seems to be less convincing as an argument if you are saying that he moves his creatures around without regard to time and space.
 
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Der Alte

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Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.

But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [ הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]• • •​

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.[/SIZE]

Bump to the front
 
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rick357

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Bump to the front

Chapters can also be cherry picked the idea is to find how both sides of a coin make one...

*[[Rom 11:25-29]] KJV*
%v 25% For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
%v 26% And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
%v 27% For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
%v 28% As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
%v 29% For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 
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Der Alte

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Chapters can also be cherry picked the idea is to find how both sides of a coin make one...

*[[Rom 11:25-29]] KJV*
%v 25% For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
%v 26% And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
%v 27% For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
%v 28% As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
%v 29% For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Please feel free to show me how I have misrepresented anything? Let's quote a few more verses in Rom chapter 11.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​

A remnant, 7000 men, are reserved, not every Israelite who was ever born.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

And their being saved depends on their not remaining in disbelief.
 
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rick357

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Please feel free to show me how I have misrepresented anything? Let's quote a few more verses in Rom chapter 11.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

A remnant, 7000 men, are reserved, not every Israelite who was ever born.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And their being saved depends on their not remaining in disbelief.

No brother Im not saying you tried to misrepresent anything...Im saying one set of verses can not negate anouther.
As to Paul he speaks of currently there is a remnant(not necessarily 7000 as that was the number given in his quote for truth)in his time later in the chapyr he speaks of the nation as a whole returning...but yes they must come to faith in Messiah first.
 
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Tallguy88

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MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion to General Theology. From this post forward, no post in this thread may promote unorthodox doctrines, as GT is for orthodox Christians only.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Rick Otto

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I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen? It would seem that if he already knows what will be, and he is the only force in existence at that time, is that or isn't that equal to him planning it?

If there is predestination, I certainly feel more sympathetic for many people throughout history. Take Judas for instance. He is toted as one of the most infamous villains in the Bible, but from the standpoint of predestination, he was only doing the job that God appointed for him to do (I mean, for Jesus to die and fulfill his plan of saving us, someone had to betray him so he could be killed). Then there's Pilate. He had a choice, set free a man and have a war on his hands that would get him executed; or kill the man to save the peace temporarily (you know, I never thought of it in that way, but Jesus's sacrifice also payed the price for stopping/delaying a possible war). Just like Judas, under predestination, Pilate was only playing the role he was scripted.

I could list countless more, but I think my thoughts have been communicated. I definitely understand the Free Will side in that a world in which we are forced to do something by something outside of our power isn't love and has no meaning. I also believe that God is in control and it would go against his very nature if he didn't know what was going to happen all along. Could it be that there is a hybridization of sorts between the two that is simply beyond our capabilities of fathoming? How do y'all reconcile this issue?
Well, I don't believe my ego is me.
So I don't believe love is worthless just because it is predestined.
I don't believe my life being totally predestined makes me a robot.
Robots don't live.

But I do believe that limitations have been put on what we can fathom, and that the paradox free will being created by an omniscient, omnipotent being is only a paradox because of our perspective, which is mostly finite.
 
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Emmy

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Dear AugustusMcCrae. God is Love and God Loves us. God wants our love freely given and no condition tagged on. God does know what we will do or say, but that is all. God wants Loving sons and daughters, not puppets without feelings of their own. It is because God knows what we really feel or do, God knows our hearts and our future. We can choose what we are going to do with our lives, either follow God or go our own way, God gave us the Commandments, and God surrounds us with His Love, but we ourselves choose to live as God wants us to, or we go our own selfish ways.
I say this with love, Augustus. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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shnarkle

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I know this is a very disputed topic, and I am sure it has been brought up countless times.

What I'm confused about is how Free Will fits into the area of God's omniscience. If God knows everything, he therefore knows everything that everyone is ever going to do, and he has always known it, even before anything except him was in existence. Is it that we have the freedom to choose, but God already knows what is going to happen? It would seem that if he already knows what will be, and he is the only force in existence at that time, is that or isn't that equal to him planning it?

If there is predestination, I certainly feel more sympathetic for many people throughout history. Take Judas for instance. He is toted as one of the most infamous villains in the Bible, but from the standpoint of predestination, he was only doing the job that God appointed for him to do (I mean, for Jesus to die and fulfill his plan of saving us, someone had to betray him so he could be killed). Then there's Pilate. He had a choice, set free a man and have a war on his hands that would get him executed; or kill the man to save the peace temporarily (you know, I never thought of it in that way, but Jesus's sacrifice also payed the price for stopping/delaying a possible war). Just like Judas, under predestination, Pilate was only playing the role he was scripted.

I could list countless more, but I think my thoughts have been communicated. I definitely understand the Free Will side in that a world in which we are forced to do something by something outside of our power isn't love and has no meaning. I also believe that God is in control and it would go against his very nature if he didn't know what was going to happen all along. Could it be that there is a hybridization of sorts between the two that is simply beyond our capabilities of fathoming? How do y'all reconcile this issue?

The only way that I can reconcile this issue is by observing that no matter how easily I may be able to see what is about to happen with someone else, in no way does it restrict there free will. I don't think that the fact that I'm only relying on probability really matters because I don't see any good place to draw a line whereby they would lose their free will. If there is a 90% probability that my uncle will stop at the next vending machine and buy a candy bar has he lost 90% of his free will? He may not have much will power, but he still has his free will.

When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed there doesn't seem to be anything in the text to indicate that Peter had all of a sudden lost his free will. Peter seems genuinely ashamed of himself and his free will decision.

The most eloquent exposition on the subject for me is from Milton's Paradise Lost.

So will fall
He and his faithless progeny: Whose fault?
Whose but his own? ingrate, he had of me
All he could have; I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all the ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood, and them who fail’d;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
Not free, what proof could they have given sincere
Of true allegiance, constant faith or love,
Where only what they needs must do appear’d,
Not what they would? what praise could they receive?
What pleasure I from such obedience paid,
When will and reason (reason also is choice)
Useless and vain, of freedom both despoil’d,
Made passive both, had serv’d necessity,
Not me? they therefore, as to right belong’d,
So were created, nor can justly accuse
Their Maker, or their making, or their fate,
As if predestination over-rul’d
Their will dispos’d by absolute decree
Or high foreknowledge they themselves decreed
Their own revolt, not I; if I foreknew,
Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
Which had no less proved certain unforeknown.

So without least impulse or shadow of fate,
Or aught by me immutably foreseen,
They trespass, authors to themselves in all
Both what they judge, and what they choose; for so
I form’d them free: and free they must remain,
Till they enthrall themselves; I else must change
Their nature, and revoke the high decree
Unchangeable, eternal, which ordain’d
Their freedom: they themselves ordain’d their fall.
 
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Albion

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...I don't believe love is worthless just because it is predestined.

I don't believe my life being totally predestined makes me a robot. Robots don't live.

But I do believe that limitations have been put on what we can fathom, and that the paradox free will being created by an omniscient, omnipotent being is only a paradox because of our perspective, which is mostly finite.

Really well said! :clap:
 
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