predestination vs. free will

[Mayflower1]

Oh, this really helped me!!!

http://www.mslick.com/predestination.htm

 

[Mayflower1]

Predestination is just so amazing. We are like sitting down, and God is just pouring lavishly on us grace we don't deserve!!!

 

[Sothron]

The Orthodox missive I posted earlier on this summarizes my views in a succinct and Scripture based fashion. It is sad that we have Christians who honestly believe their loving Father would create humanity and intentionally condemn over half of it to hell because they didn't get their names drawn out of the big Top Hat in Heaven.

When Timothy reads "ALL men" I believe he is in fact referring to ALL men. When Jesus said "Do this in Remembrance of Me" he didn't add "Except you guys born in the 11th century, yeah, the whole lot of you didn't get your names drawn out of the Top Hat" or when he said "No man may come to the Father but through Me" he didn't specify the "elect".

I realize you Calvinists will continue to believe in your angry verison of a God who on some whim condemns or saves but thankfully the rest of us have another belief. God Bless.

 

[Mayflower1]

I never thought of it as being drawn out of a top hat. I can't remember the verse that talks about it, but God is the potter and we are His clay. He can do with it whatsoever He wishes, and it isn't unloving for sending anyone to Hell. We don't deserve it, we wouldn't love Him without a regenerated spirit to begin with!

 

[DanJudge]

Okay, here we go... I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but I need answers, and the right answers at that! I'm confused as to what is the truth: free will (Christ died for all and if you accept His sacrifice you will be with Him in heaven one day) or predestination (God chose some people for salvation and some for damnation, to show His glory). I've been reading books on this and having somewhat of an email discussion with an acquaintance of mine - yet he is predestination all the way and has given me books as such, one of which first told me not to assume/believe anything that's not in the Bible, and then later goes on to state that he (the author) believes that God saves some and damns some to show the angels how great He is, and that they live on another planet in a galaxy far, far away which modern science could eventually take us to with space travel!

So, you see, I'm at odds with the information I've received thus far, and I don't know who/what to believe. I'm trying to discover more through my Bible readings, but sometimes the Bible seems contradictory... I know it doesn't really do that (I know this by faith!) but it seems that way. Also, the passages that people use to defend one viewpoint or the other are ones that, when I read them, can be taken in different ways, depending on what Jesus was really talking about when He said what He said (or what Paul said or whatever the particular passage may be)!!

Essentially, I'm looking for the church (that'd be you guys ) to give me some direction in this matter. It's so hard to trust what I already know, I'm afraid of not being able to trust that and more. Does that make sense? Hey, I appreciate any posts that'll help me get a better understanding of who God is and how He really does run things, in this regard. (I have a friend that says he believes free will, but he doesn't know if it's even an issue [i.e. does it matter?]. However, when thought through all the way, I see a significant difference in the personality/essence of God between these two viewpoints. That is why I want to know the truth - to know God for who He really is.)

This is a chapter from that "little book" of Revelation chapter 10. Seek and you will Find.

​

ON PREDESTINATION​

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Surely the poor people are chosen alone, and not another group with them, as the Scripture says, “Blessed are the poor people, because the Kingdom of God belongs to you” (Luke 6:20) and (in the Greek), “Blessed by the Spirit are the poor people, because the Kingdom of the Heavens belongs to them” (Matthew 5:3); but to the rich Christ says, “But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your consolation” (Luke 6:24) and, “How hard is it for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God? It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24-25).

There is after all no free will, but only predestination, as the Scripture says, “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His own purpose” (Philippians 2:13) and, “Therefore He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy, and who He wants to He hardens” (Romans 9:18). Thus we see that faith in God and all good traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of Christ — derive from the condition of poverty; and rebellion against God and all evil traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of the devil — derive from the condition of wealth; and so the Scripture says, “Hasn’t God chosen the poor people out of the world, those being rich in faith and so heirs of the Kingdom that He has promised for the ones who love Him? But you have despised the poor people! Don’t the rich oppress you? And they drag you into the courts. Don’t they blaspheme the good Name that is called on you?” (James 2:5-7). And again, “They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Therefore they say to God, ‘Depart from us, for we desire not the knowledge of Your ways’ ” (Job 21:13-14). There are therefore in terms of truth only two nations upon the earth and not many, those being the nation of the poor people scattered throughout the world in all societies — all poor people of all societies being identical to one another in heart immediately below the level of words and so forming in truth one nation — who are the children of the Kingdom; and the nation of the wealthy people likewise scattered throughout the world in all societies, who are the children of the evil one. And surely the heart of the prostitute is purer than the heart of the chief priest and the elder. And so the rich man who was with Lazarus during this life was told, “You during your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus his bad things; but now he is comforted here while you are tormented” (Luke 16:25).

To the rich God says, “Go and sell whatever you have and give it away to the poor people, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come, follow me” (Luke 18:22). But the rich, being atheists and blasphemers against the good Name of God that is called on the poor people, hearing about “treasure in Heaven” only laugh in their hearts and reject the path of salvation that God has ordained for them.

And do you know of even one of them who has ever obeyed it for ages past?

Then God waits for their death.
Then He throws them down to Hell.
Then He says to them, “This is the fire that you mocked at!”

And so He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy — and who He wants to He hardens.

— Barry I. Hyman​

CHRISTIAN REVOLUATIONARY BROTHERHOOD​

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Peace be with You ​

DanJudge​

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

Southron. You keep saying the same things over and over again. Disprove Calvinist scripture, and we'll have something to talk about. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Disprove the Calvinist views on Romans Chapter 9.

I'm challenging you personally, because as of yet, you have not said a single thing about any scripture anyone else has posted, you just continually going back to your lone verse in Timothy.

Shalom.

 

[Reformationist]

It is sad that we have Christians who honestly believe their loving Father would create humanity and intentionally condemn over half of it to hell because they didn't get their names drawn out of the big Top Hat in Heaven.

I'm curious how you, a finite creation, who has absolutely no clue how many people will live over the course of history, came up with the figure of "over half of humanity." Maybe you could proffer the source for that insight so that the rest of us can be aware of such information. Thanks.

I realize you Calvinists will continue to believe in your despot of a God who on some whim condemns or saves but thankfully the rest of us have another belief.

Do you honestly think you come across as anything but ignorant of the reformed view when you speak like this? We don't profess that God elects or passes over anyone "on a whim." Why must you perpetuate such nonsense?

 

[Sothron]

Brother, its Sothron. I do not know whether it is an intentional mistake on your part but it is not "Southron".

This site give an excellent refusal of the theory of Calvinism:

http://www.bibletruths.org/cults/predestination.htm

and here:

http://www.bibletruths.org/cults/additional.htm

And I will repost for a second time the following:

THE TEACHING ON PREDESTINATION AND THE VENERATION OF SAINTS. Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consis-tent. If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish? There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."

The erroneousness of the reformers'teaching is obvious. It perverts the truly Christian understanding of God's justice and mercy, of man's worth and purpose as a free and rational being. God appears here not as a loving, merciful Father, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition.
The Orthodox Church also recognizes predestination, but does not consider it unconditional, that is, independent of men's free well and based on a groundless decision of the divine will. Accord-ing to Orthodox teaching, God, as omniscient, knows, foresees the moral state of men and, on the basis of this foresight, preordains, predetermines for them a certain fate.

But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state; He does not preordain either a virtuous or a sinful life and does not at all inhibit our freedom. Therefore, even the Apostle Paul, whom the reformers cite, very closely connects the teaching on predestination with the teaching on God's foresight. In the Epistle to the Romans, he explains this thought in detail, and, incidentally, says concerning predestina-tion: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son? Moreover whom he did pre-destinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). In this way, God predestinates to glory not according to His groundless arbitrariness, as the reformers think, but according to His foreknowledge of a man's merits accomplished through his free will.

As for the snide and insulting remarks, which I find hardly surprising, I understand what the Calivinists think. That man is so coated in evil that only by grace does God spare some of us from hell "the elect" and I have yet to see how exactly God decides who those lucky people are and how Calvinists decide who has the secret decoder ring to solve that mystery.

Refomationist, my reference to "half of humanity" is presented as a guess or simple speculation as to how many people are not of the "elect" or who didn't get their names drawn out of the Top Hat. If you know just how many names were drawn out and whose names were found worthy please share that information with us.

What seems very obvious to me, and no I do not claim to know the mind of God, is that while God knows the ultimate decision individuals make that decision is left up to the individual to choose salvation or not. The glory mentioned by Paul in Romans that CalivinstSamurai keeps tossing up is reserved for those who choseto accept salvation. God knew who those people would be; he did not make that decision for them or reserve come finite quality of grace for them and deny it to another.

 

[raffster]

brownie3

Don't get caught up in trying to figure out stuff that's been tossed around for ages and nobody really knows for sure what the deal is. I personally think that it's a waste of time.

The real question you should ask yourself is: why does it even matter to figure out how predestination coincides or not coincides with free will, and vice-versa?

How does knowing that God knows everything ahead of time help you in your spiritual journey? Or who cares if you don't have free will or can't define it? Are you able to make decisions on your own and ready to face whatever consequences of those decisions? That's the only thing that matters.

Between predestination and free will is just a futile attempt to put oneself in God's shoes (if he even wears shoes) and try think that we mortals can think what God thinks.

Focus on how you can be a more loving Christian. That's where it boils down to and that's the only thing that matters.

 

[hopperace]

Well thank you everyone for all your posts! This is helping me, thank you! I went through and read up to this point, and I made a short list of comments/questions based on what was said...

1. My pastor says you cannot use Ephesians to prove/disprove predestination because it's a book written to Christians and therefore the subject material is about believers only. What do you (all) say to that?
2. I grew up thinking I have to "do things for God." As I don't have to do anything (as He once told me, I'm pretty sure it was Him), I'm wondering if, by not doing for Him, that would be an act of worship in my life because it shows reliance on His Word and His grace. Do you think that could be (in my life/circumstance anyway)?
3.Ciborium, I understand how the Word can seem contradictory but isn't. I recently found a great "parable" that helps me understand this better: my husband and I went to China this summer and he had our digital camera while I took lots of film pictures. When we got back and looked at both sets of pictures it was clear that two different people were behind the lenses. For some parts of the trip, it looked like the pictures contradicted each other for what we were doing at the time, but I know that they're both right, although they are of course just pictures and they do not tell the whole story, even together. That's how I see the Gospels, and generally the Bible.
4.Gratia said on post #16 that "Good works are not the evidence of salvation, bu they are the result." This would make me wanna prove myself to God, others, and myself that yes, I really am saved in case you were wondering.
5. On post #18, CalvinistSamurai quoted Jesus when He said "to give His life as a ransom for many". This is one of many examples where it can be taken both ways. CS showed us the predestination way in his post, and the free will way is essentially by saying, "Yeah, the many that accept Christ as Lord. Those that don't accept Him aren't part of the many, because by their choice they're going to Hell." It simply goes both ways, or I should say it can be interpreted either way, with many Bible passages. (see my thread starter)

Thanks again everyone! Keep it coming! (Oh and a lil' prayer for me wouldn't hurt if you could spare the moments. Thanks.

Prayers for you, brownie3.

I’m glad you’re studying for yourself and intent on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and not just taking other’s words for your understandings and beliefs. And bravo on the picture parable - that’s exactly as I see it. In fact the Bible itself is a snapshot - an image of God’s revealed will, that can be interpreted so many ways, including contradictory ones. I regularly talk with people who are quite well-versed in the Bible, but who are not self-identified Christians – some of whom are decidedly anti-Christian. (It is no wonder that Satan used the Word of God to tempt both Eve and Jesus.) I’ve encountered many an admirable follower of Christ who are at get odds with my gleanings from Scripture, and even in disagreement as to what constitutes Christian Scripture. And I’ve met many Christians who, for various reasons, are quite without the ability, opportunity, or even the desire or diligence to read and study the Christian Scriptures. There have been times in Christian history when the very reading of Scripture was considered a dangerous endeavor for the Christian layman, and advisedly of considerable preparatory prayer and circumspect devotion for the clergy. What I mean is that any reading of Scripture must work in concert with guidance of the Holy Spirit to glean a clear and discernable picture of God and His revealed will. And without a doubt there are so many layers of intricate beauty and wisdom that one could study but a tiny frame of Scripture for a lifetime and still discern (or rather have revealed) a deeper, richer meaning of God’s vacation with man in a small part of the backyard of all He has created (even if we’re even capable of determining whether or not it’s the backyard, the frontyard, a dining hall, or perhaps just an outhouse.

I don’t like to insert myself into contradicting a pastor charged with your care and nurturing, so I’m intent to reconcile my understanding of Ephesians with what your pastor may be thinking. In at least two senses it is correct that Ephesians is a book written to Christians. It is internally addressed to the Church (even in the old Greek manuscripts that don’t include “at Ephesus”), and the Bible in general is intended as God’s revelation to His people, as a guide and rule of faith and practice.

If I’m following a correct interpretation of what I’m hearing your pastor as saying, I think he may mean that as regards addressing the matter of predestination, Ephesians is referencing a predestination of those God has “chosen” “in him before the foundation of the world”. In other words, Ephesians is not referencing a predestination of unbelievers to damnation, and as such ought not to be used to assert an election of some by God to be eternally lost from “redemption through [Christ’s] blood”, “forgiveness of sins”, and all other “spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” from “before the foundation of the world”. Such a claim of a predestination and even election by God of some to eternal damnation is what is sometimes referred to as double predestination (Romans is much more detailed concerning this). The closet Ephesians seems to addressing a predestination of the lost, is in 4:18 where it says, “having the understanding darkened”, which Scripture elsewhere sometimes attributes to an act of God. And yet in this particular context, it clearly indicates that this darkness was due to their own ignorance, blindness, and giving of “themselves over” to uncleanness.

Paul does spend a good bit of text (in Ephesians) addressing the state of Christians before we were “quickened” (KJV), as well as particulars of those he’s addressing being Gentiles in the past (Paul was Jewish), “having no hope, and without God in the world”, and in emphasizing that our salvation is “not of ourselves”, “not of works” - even though we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them”. In other words, we are not saved by any work of our own (even our faith, apart from His grace), but we are certainly intended and ordained to do good works – not in our own strength, but by God’s grace given to us. The text is primarily addressing Gentile Christians who led unholy lives before being saved. Too often Christians think they are doing God some favor by working for Him, or even choosing to be a pastor, missionary, or worker in some ‘Christian’ profession. In truth, God does not need us to give Him glory. He expects it from us, and empowers us to offer it to Him, but He does not need it; and He set a requirement for us to be holy and perfect in every way to have any part of fellowship in His Kingdom. He indeed provides this cleansing for us, as His own gift; and any return of favor by us is an expression of the love He empowers in us to glorify Him. God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves or even purely want or will to do. Long before we could choose God, He chose us in Christ. I would say that faith and good works are the fruits and proof, but not the basis, of God’s election and predestination of those He saves from the hell we have chosen for ourselves –rescued by His grace, to His glory. We are also told that, “whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord” (NRSV). The Lord will bless whatever good we offer to Him – like a great circle of ever increasing goodness that begins with God, and is never ending.

Paul also addresses the teaching of “principalities and powers in heavenly places” – that is, a disclosure to angelic beings - of the “fellowship of the mystery” of what “manifold wisdom of God” is being made know to the church - in reference to the Gentiles being made “fellow heir, and of the same body and partakers of [God’s] promise in Christ by the gospel”, as the “commonwealth of Israel”, having been brought into the “covenants of promise” – “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” In other words, the realm of angelic beings have been taught one of the mysteries of the Church, which had been kept hidden – namely that Gentiles are being brought into the covenant promises previously reserved only for Israel, and are now, in Christ, one body.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Brownie3:

You're looking at what I said from the wrong context. It is true what you said about 'from the free will way.' My point wasn't to prove predestination per se. My point was to prove election. That Jesus' death was only effecatious to save the elect, the many.


I find that the main problem with the free will view of things though is that they are want to back things up with scripture. It just doesn't happen. They quote texts where it says that we have to choose, but are not able to produce scripture which says that we are ultimately determinate, yet calvinists time and time again point to texts like Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.

I suggest a shift of the topic. So far this topic has beed a ton of logic, not a ton of scripture. Lets move to scripture. I'll post some here, and let the free willers argue against it, and hopefully post scripture of their own. These are parts from an outline I wrote for the bible study I teach on Romans. Specifically, I was teaching on 8:20-21.

a. God's deity professed by His foreknowledge
i. Of God proper.
1. Is 41:22-23, 42:8-9, 45:21, 46:9-10
ii. Of Christ.
1. Jn 13:19
2. Judas - Jn 13:21, 13:26-27, Jn 6:64
iii. His foreknowledge is certainty, or else He is not God.

b. Ordination of Sin.
ii. Example of the hardening of Pharaoh's Heart (Exodus, Rom 9)
1. God first pronounces what He will do (Ex 7:3, 14:4), then proclaims it as His doing (Ex 10:1, 14:8)
2. Pharaoh's heart is hardened time and time again, with the added phrase 'as the Lord had said' (Ex 7:14, 7:22, 8:15, 8:19, 8:32, 9:7, 9:34-5)
3. It is then said that the Lord hardened his heart (10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8)
4. It is called sin (9:34)
5. God's hardening cannot be called 'judicial' based on the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart up to the 6th plague, because God declared beforehand that He would be the hardening agent. A judicial decision cannot come before the evidence is presented.
iii. The murder of Jesus. (Acts 3:13, 4:27)

c. Opinions of Biblical characters in reference to God's sovereignty
i. Job: Job 1:21, 42:2, 2:7-10
ii. Paul: 2 Cor 12:7
iii. Prophet Amos: Amos 3:6
iv. Prophet Isaiah: Is 45:7
v. King Solomon: Prov 16:33
vi. Prophet Jeremiah: 10:23
vii. Nebuchadnezzar: Dan 4:35
viii. Moses: Ex 5:22

d. God's control over specifics.
i. Death.
1. Job 1:21-22, Deut 32:39, 2 Sam 12:15, Jas 4:14- 15
ii. Disease/Satan
1. Ex 4:11, Job 2:7-10, Jas 5:11, 2 Cor 12:7, Mk 1:27, Lk 4:36
iii. Moral Evil
1. Gen 50:20, Ps 105:7, Acts 4:27-28, Prov 20:24, Prov 19:21, Prov 21:1, Jn 10:23

e. Romans 9.
i. Statements in Romans 9 on God's control are not made under context of nations. Forcing this passage to pertain only to nations goes entirely against the flow of the book and assumes that Paul changes contexts at the end of ch 8, then resumes later in 9.
ii. Romans 9 is a blanket statement of God's authority over all, and that all history is according to His sovereign good pleasure.
iii. Note: when Paul presses the question of 'Why does He still find fault?' no answer is given. Paul flatly avoids the question and only states that God's decisions are righteous and we are not to question them. See Job 38.



I think those chunks of the outline biblically depict the view of calvinists on predestination/preterition/foreknowlege/ordination.
Shalom

Just coming onto this thred I was about to post my views...then I read this post and said "THAT GUY SAID EVERYHTHING I AGREE WITH AND WAS GOING TO SAY." So I decided to quote him. Yeah, I would defintely like to see someone refute these scriptures he has presented? Reading from the first post to the last, I've only seen a few supporting a fully "free will" argument, and they are weak at that.

I know this thread wasn't meant to be a debate thread...but seeing this debated sure will give you some understanding brownie...knowing both sides of the issue is very important.

 

[brownie3]

Hi again,
So, I've read through all the posts thus far (again) and have compiled a list of responses (again).

1. Rick said in post 23 that "You DO 'have to do things for God', unless you have so little conscience that you have no capacity for feeling gratitude or obligation in spite of His many overt commandments." HARSH! Did you not read my explanation behind what I wrote in my second post? You're suggesting I run around and stress over doing stuff "for God' so I can feel good about my salvation. To be frank, what you said hurt, because it's like you were saying that I don't care about doing things for God. Would I be seeking everyone's perspectives/teachings/advice if I "had so little conscience"? Can't you see I'm trying to grow in my faith? What you said sounds very legalistic! And that is what I'm trying to get away from - less legalism, more love! (Hmm, that should be my slogan...)

2. What Gratia says in post 24 about quality vs. quantity really makes sense to me - letting God work through us (quality) rather than competing with ourselves to "do stuff" for God (quantity). Thanks!

3. Calv.Sam. in post 30 says to Sothron (I almost called you Southron too by mistake), "Of course God wants all to come to Him. Unfortunately for those who aren't elect, His heart and His desire to carry out His purpose in glorifying Himself are two different things." CS, I see how this could be, but, why must it be? Is it not possible for God to save all who choose Him (and let the rest go as they please) and yet glorify Himself, perhaps in a different way? He is God, after all.

4. Thanks to all who have posted websites - I will read through them all when I get a chance.

5.So far I see predestination as the following: Once upon a time, God decided to sit at His potter's wheel and make lots of little creations (us). Some He decided to make to show His glory. Others He made to show His wrath. That's how God showed all His creations (from before and for the future) His personality.
Forgive me if that sounds too simplistic or even insulting - I'm just trying to work with an easy context. Given the little story I wrote here... I don't really feel the love, for the wrath creations or the glory creations. If I'm a glory creation, I feel like a pawn in God's personality-revealing game, rather than an essential creation which He loves devotedly. Any thoughts on this?

6. A thought I had in church this week (somewhat related to #5): how can God be vengeful/wrathful and yet loving? Those are polar opposites in my mind.

7. Post 39 claims a difference between "all people without exception" and "all people without distinction" but I just don't see it. Explain?

8. Raffster, in response to your post #49, see the end of post #1, the opening thread.

9. Ciborium, what you say in post 50 about the Word being revealed to us is very, very true. Unfortunately for me, not much is revealed to me when I read the Word (which is nearly every day), but then, I am only 3 years old and I'm studying the Bible cover to cover and am now in Luke. [For those of you who want to jump on me for not having read most of the New Testament, please don't - this was the way I knew I needed to read the Bible, and I'll finish it out that way and then study/read it as God will (assumably) show me.]

Thanks again everyone! Keep it coming!

 

[Sothron]

I just have to say that there can be no definite 100% answer that we at the CF site can present to you. As you can probably detect from my previous posts I absolutely abhor the Calvinist teachings and the almost demonic despot of a God they represent. However, rather or not we have free will this is not an issue that would jeopardize your salvation or interfere with your own walk with the Lord.

There is no way to discern a final answer until we stand before Him and learn for ourselves. I am sure that the Calvinists have arrived at their beliefs after research and prayer, I arrived at my free will beliefs in the same manner. Neither supercedes our salvation or our walk with God. I just don't want for you to become so sidetracked by a theological debate that frankly is little more than "how many angels can dance on the Top Hat?" and have it harm your faith.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Well, I think this issue reveals a lot of God's character. Since you have already brought it up and are wrestling with the issue, you probably shouldn't just put it down. Let me see if I can't give you another viewpoint. I haven't seen this example on here so maybe it will shed some new light on the issue.

Ephesians 2 starts off by telling us how we used to indulge in evil and the desires of our flesh before we became regenerate. Ephesians 2:4-5 says,

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ..."

Now, according to your pastor, this verse is in context to Christians. I am in agreeance with this, since Paul tells them how they "formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh". This proves they were once not saved, which means they are now saved. You can see I italicized the word "dead". This is a state of spiritual deadness, obviously, because we were still very much physically alive when we weren't saved. This text doesn't say "dying", or "almost dead", it says flat out "dead". This means we had absolutely no way of placing our faith in God and becoming ultimately responsible for our salvation. We weren't capable of it, because we were spiritually dead. "But God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,... made us alive together with Christ." So God's act of saving us was one of love and mercy. Whether you feel love from God saving (or electing) you is not irrelevant to whether it actually happened that way or not. The man who believes that man has ultimate determination and ultimate free will aside from God is directly contradicting the teaching of Ephesians 2, because he believes man can choose God although he is in a spiritually dead state.

I think that explains it. I hope you can see love in this situation. I am quite happy that God is in control of everything and I have no power over His will. I feel loved by Him for this. He chose me before the very foundation of the world. Is that not love?

As far as the idea that God would be evil and not in line with His character if He did predestine some to Hell, tell me. How is this any different from:

All of the people He killed during the flood.

The fact that He chose Israel over all other nations.

When He destroyed Sodom and Gamhorra.

When He killed the baby inside of Bathsheba's womb.

and when he cursed Satan for his rebellion?

Was God cruel to Satan? We have done the same thing Satan has. We have rebelled. This is love, that we do not get what we deserve. And the only reason we won't is because God has made it certain. If you don't believe that, then really, how safe are you?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

There is no way to discern a final answer until we stand before Him and learn for ourselves.

True in one way, and false in another. Sure, the subject will be completely closed and final once we get there and we will know. But the Scriptures are closed and final when it comes to their ability to reveal truth to us. And if you are walking with the Spirit daily in your studies, you can know the truth, because He will reveal it to you. I do not believe everything I believe is correct, because I do not have a perfect relationship with the Spirit, where every passage of Scripture I read, it is interpretted perfectly by the Spirit. But on the flipside, am I not sure of anything at all, because of that? Of course not. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me in the Scriptures that God is totally independent and sovereign, and that His most important attribute is His righteousness, not His love. Therefore, the ultimate purpose for God's creation is for His good pleasure and to glorify Himself. It is not up to us to tell Him how He can and can't do things. Let go of your personal wishes, of what you want to believe about how you are in control. Let go. God reigns sovereign over all creation.

 

[Sothron]

If we all found the same answers in the Spirit and in the Word then there would not be any other denomination but one or any need for a "General Theology" forum. I am happy that you have found an epistemology that helps you in your faith and understanding of the Lord. I found another. Until we both stand before Him, I think its a little presumptious to declare it "false" that all final answers can be found here on Earth. No offense to you.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

3. Calv.Sam. in post 30 says to Sothron (I almost called you Southron too by mistake), "Of course God wants all to come to Him. Unfortunately for those who aren't elect, His heart and His desire to carry out His purpose in glorifying Himself are two different things." CS, I see how this could be, but, why must it be? Is it not possible for God to save all who choose Him (and let the rest go as they please) and yet glorify Himself, perhaps in a different way? He is God, after all.

You are trying to argue a point without backing it with scripture, Brownie. It must be because that is what Scripture says. The reason why we have the belief of free will is because of what you are doing here. You are thinking up a belief that suits how you feel, then (eventually) looking at Scripture and interpretting it based on your belief system. This is completely backwards. Form your opinion from Scripture, not from logic. If you wish to believe you can use reason to understand God, then maybe you'd feel more accepted as a Jehovah's Witness (Im totally joking, but thats what they believe.).

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I think its a little presumptious to declare it "false" that all final answers can be found here on Earth. No offense to you.

Once again, another idea without the backing of scripture.

John 14:26- But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, who the Father will send in my name, He will teach you ALL things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

Brownie. Look at Scripture. Not at what makes sense to you. You have now seen an example of falseness through what somebody felt was wrong without look at what Scripture says first.

 

[Sothron]

Who knew all the answers that have plagued Christianity for 2000 years can be found in the personage of Jesusfreak5000?

You do realize the pride is a sin I hope. It is great that you think you have all the answers to Christianity but suggesting the Holy Spirit has given "ALL" the answers to everyone is simply untrue. Obviously the Holy Spirit has given some of us just on this one topic one answer and given others another answer.

 

[Sothron]

And just a FYI, I've given more Scripture showing the fallacy of Calvinism than any Calvinist has brought to the table. Simply peruse the links I showed earlier.