predestination vs. free will

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

THE TEACHING ON PREDESTINATION AND THE VENERATION OF SAINTS. Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consis-tent. If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish? There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."

This is faulty logic. While I admit that this logic is internally coherent if no other theological affirmations are woven into play, Lutheran theology does have other factors woven into play- namely, the church. Where Arminians assume that God's knowledge upon which he bases his decision must be the choice of the individual, Lutherans (contrary to most other Protestants) see the church as an entity between God and man administrated by the Spirit. We can account for God's predestination of the elect to heaven without any corresponding election to eternal damnation because God bases his choice on his very own work conducted by the Spirit through the humans of the church. Those who resists the church or outside the church are therefore not acted upon by the Spirit and therefore not predestined, but not necessarily predestined to eternal damnation.

 

[brownie3]

Well thank you everyone for all your posts! This is helping me, thank you! I went through and read up to this point, and I made a short list of comments/questions based on what was said...

1. My pastor says you cannot use Ephesians to prove/disprove predestination because it's a book written to Christians and therefore the subject material is about believers only. What do you (all) say to that?
2. I grew up thinking I have to "do things for God." As I don't have to do anything (as He once told me, I'm pretty sure it was Him), I'm wondering if, by not doing for Him, that would be an act of worship in my life because it shows reliance on His Word and His grace. Do you think that could be (in my life/circumstance anyway)?
3.Ciborium, I understand how the Word can seem contradictory but isn't. I recently found a great "parable" that helps me understand this better: my husband and I went to China this summer and he had our digital camera while I took lots of film pictures. When we got back and looked at both sets of pictures it was clear that two different people were behind the lenses. For some parts of the trip, it looked like the pictures contradicted each other for what we were doing at the time, but I know that they're both right, although they are of course just pictures and they do not tell the whole story, even together. That's how I see the Gospels, and generally the Bible.
4.Gratia said on post #16 that "Good works are not the evidence of salvation, bu they are the result." This would make me wanna prove myself to God, others, and myself that yes, I really am saved in case you were wondering.
5. On post #18, CalvinistSamurai quoted Jesus when He said "to give His life as a ransom for many". This is one of many examples where it can be taken both ways. CS showed us the predestination way in his post, and the free will way is essentially by saying, "Yeah, the many that accept Christ as Lord. Those that don't accept Him aren't part of the many, because by their choice they're going to Hell." It simply goes both ways, or I should say it can be interpreted either way, with many Bible passages. (see my thread starter)

Thanks again everyone! Keep it coming! (Oh and a lil' prayer for me wouldn't hurt if you could spare the moments. Thanks.

 

[Rick Otto]

1. You cannot use one pastor to prove the subject material in Ephesians doesn't support predestination(election) simply because the epistle was wriiten to Christians.
2.You DO "have to do things for God", unless you have so little conscience that you have no capacity for feeling gratitude or obligation in spite of His many overt commandments.
3.Great picture analogy!
4.results are evidence of something.What you prove of yourself to God(& everybody), is your appreciation of Him.
5. Ok then, by their predestined choice, their going to hell.
Omniscience doesn't leave room for chance. Omnipotent sovereignity doesn't merit the effort of human will.

Lord have mercy on brownie & me!
Lord, we believe; help thou our unbelief!*
*from Mark 9:24

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

4.Gratia said on post #16 that "Good works are not the evidence of salvation, bu they are the result." This would make me wanna prove myself to God, others, and myself that yes, I really am saved in case you were wondering.

Not at all what I was implying, and in my theology this minor nuance his wholly subordinant to the supreme truth that faith alone (imbued in us by grace alone) is the sole means and measure of our justification. I struggled with this briefly until I realized that no matter how good I am, my good works can never evidence my faith since God does not see my works, but only his precious Son covering me. And moreover, it is not the quantity of good works that are the result, but the quality- whether or not our works are considered as stemming from us sinful humans or the holy Christ acting through us.

Just clarifying my point. Best of luck in your spiritual journey.

 

[Iosias]

ww

Okay, here we go... I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but I need answers, and the right answers at that! I'm confused as to what is the truth: free will (Christ died for all and if you accept His sacrifice you will be with Him in heaven one day) or predestination (God chose some people for salvation and some for damnation, to show His glory). I've been reading books on this and having somewhat of an email discussion with an acquaintance of mine - yet he is predestination all the way and has given me books as such, one of which first told me not to assume/believe anything that's not in the Bible, and then later goes on to state that he (the author) believes that God saves some and damns some to show the angels how great He is, and that they live on another planet in a galaxy far, far away which modern science could eventually take us to with space travel!

So, you see, I'm at odds with the information I've received thus far, and I don't know who/what to believe. I'm trying to discover more through my Bible readings, but sometimes the Bible seems contradictory... I know it doesn't really do that (I know this by faith!) but it seems that way. Also, the passages that people use to defend one viewpoint or the other are ones that, when I read them, can be taken in different ways, depending on what Jesus was really talking about when He said what He said (or what Paul said or whatever the particular passage may be)!!

Essentially, I'm looking for the church (that'd be you guys ) to give me some direction in this matter. It's so hard to trust what I already know, I'm afraid of not being able to trust that and more. Does that make sense? Hey, I appreciate any posts that'll help me get a better understanding of who God is and how He really does run things, in this regard. (I have a friend that says he believes free will, but he doesn't know if it's even an issue [i.e. does it matter?]. However, when thought through all the way, I see a significant difference in the personality/essence of God between these two viewpoints. That is why I want to know the truth - to know God for who He really is.)

I would recommend you purchase and read The Five Points of Calvinismand The Sovereignty of God. which can be read online here.

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

Brownie3:

You're looking at what I said from the wrong context. It is true what you said about 'from the free will way.' My point wasn't to prove predestination per se. My point was to prove election. That Jesus' death was only effecatious to save the elect, the many.


I find that the main problem with the free will view of things though is that they are want to back things up with scripture. It just doesn't happen. They quote texts where it says that we have to choose, but are not able to produce scripture which says that we are ultimately determinate, yet calvinists time and time again point to texts like Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.

I suggest a shift of the topic. So far this topic has beed a ton of logic, not a ton of scripture. Lets move to scripture. I'll post some here, and let the free willers argue against it, and hopefully post scripture of their own. These are parts from an outline I wrote for the bible study I teach on Romans. Specifically, I was teaching on 8:20-21.

a. God's deity professed by His foreknowledge
i. Of God proper.
1. Is 41:22-23, 42:8-9, 45:21, 46:9-10
ii. Of Christ.
1. Jn 13:19
2. Judas - Jn 13:21, 13:26-27, Jn 6:64
iii. His foreknowledge is certainty, or else He is not God.

b. Ordination of Sin.
ii. Example of the hardening of Pharaoh's Heart (Exodus, Rom 9)
1. God first pronounces what He will do (Ex 7:3, 14:4), then proclaims it as His doing (Ex 10:1, 14:8)
2. Pharaoh's heart is hardened time and time again, with the added phrase 'as the Lord had said' (Ex 7:14, 7:22, 8:15, 8:19, 8:32, 9:7, 9:34-5)
3. It is then said that the Lord hardened his heart (10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8)
4. It is called sin (9:34)
5. God's hardening cannot be called 'judicial' based on the fact that Pharaoh hardened his own heart up to the 6th plague, because God declared beforehand that He would be the hardening agent. A judicial decision cannot come before the evidence is presented.
iii. The murder of Jesus. (Acts 3:13, 4:27)

c. Opinions of Biblical characters in reference to God's sovereignty
i. Job: Job 1:21, 42:2, 2:7-10
ii. Paul: 2 Cor 12:7
iii. Prophet Amos: Amos 3:6
iv. Prophet Isaiah: Is 45:7
v. King Solomon: Prov 16:33
vi. Prophet Jeremiah: 10:23
vii. Nebuchadnezzar: Dan 4:35
viii. Moses: Ex 5:22

d. God's control over specifics.
i. Death.
1. Job 1:21-22, Deut 32:39, 2 Sam 12:15, Jas 4:14- 15
ii. Disease/Satan
1. Ex 4:11, Job 2:7-10, Jas 5:11, 2 Cor 12:7, Mk 1:27, Lk 4:36
iii. Moral Evil
1. Gen 50:20, Ps 105:7, Acts 4:27-28, Prov 20:24, Prov 19:21, Prov 21:1, Jn 10:23

e. Romans 9.
i. Statements in Romans 9 on God's control are not made under context of nations. Forcing this passage to pertain only to nations goes entirely against the flow of the book and assumes that Paul changes contexts at the end of ch 8, then resumes later in 9.
ii. Romans 9 is a blanket statement of God's authority over all, and that all history is according to His sovereign good pleasure.
iii. Note: when Paul presses the question of 'Why does He still find fault?' no answer is given. Paul flatly avoids the question and only states that God's decisions are righteous and we are not to question them. See Job 38.



I think those chunks of the outline biblically depict the view of calvinists on predestination/preterition/foreknowlege/ordination. If you want to see the whole outline, my bible study's notes page is at
http://www.xanga.com/CYC_YABS

Shalom

 

[Sothron]

I believe John 3 silences quite effectively silences the Calvinists:


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Take note that the emphasis on "the world" and that anyone who believes will not be condmened. Please note Jesus did not add a separate list for all the lucky people who God picked out of the Heavenly Top Hat. God gave man the freedom to determine his own spiritual life. Hence why Jesus was sent for the world not the "elect".

It is yet again interesting and compelling to note that nowhere does Jesus Himself ever come close to stating anything like the Calvinists profess. Don't you think if Jesus only wanted the Gospel to go to the "elect" he might have mentioned it?

 

[Iosias]

It is yet again interesting and compelling to note that nowhere does Jesus Himself ever come close to stating anything like the Calvinists profess.

John 10:26, 27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[Sothron]

He was speaking to people who of their own free will rejected Him.

2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. (NIV).

1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV).
1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV).

Amazing, then, how many times we are assured that Jesus died for the world and for ALL of us and not just the Heavenly Top Hat Winners.

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

Once again, you've only posted scritpures speaking in generalities. Predestination does not annul man's participation or responsibility in his salvation/condemnation (Rom 9:19), it just says that his days are appointed by God (Prov 16:33). Quoting texts that say that man must choose God does not rule out predestination, nor are they in support of free will.

Let me also define how I see the terms, to avoid confusion:

Free will: The ultimate determination of man. Man's choices supercede those of God, and the individual is entirely decisive in his own dealings. God only has the ability to work around the choices of man, yet cannot force or decide man's actions for him.

Free agency: Man is responsible for his actions, yet God is decisive in the outworkings of history past and future. Man is limited to his own personality, the very fabric of which was created by God, and so man is constrained to do only what is according to his own personality. He only has 'free will' in the sense that he chooses according to his personality, but otherwise is constrained by it because it was God who gave him that personality, accoding to His sovereign good pleasure.

I find that the main problem with the free will view of things though is that they are want to back things up with scripture. It just doesn't happen. They quote texts where it says that we have to choose, but are not able to produce scripture which says that we are ultimately determinate, yet calvinists time and time again point to texts like Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.

There are no passages that outrightly say that man has determination (free will) above God's will. You have to first argue against passages on predestination in order to support your free will claims. Claiming 'free will' on such passages without first annuling the Calvinist view on passages such as Rom 9 or Eph 1 proves absolutely nothing against the Calvinist view of 'free agency.' Without disproving Calvinist views on election, you are only applying your own isogesis to passages that otherwise wholly agree with predestintional doctrines.

Not one person as of yet has even tried to speak against what Paul wrote in Romans 9. "It is not the man who wills or the man who runs, but God who has mercy." Or how about all the passages I posted above about what the Prophets had to say about God's sovereignty?

AV1611:
It is yet again interesting and compelling to note that nowhere does Jesus Himself ever come close to stating anything like the Calvinists profess. Don't you think if Jesus only wanted the Gospel to go to the "elect" he might have mentioned it?

You're annuling the rest of canonized scripture by saying this. Whether Jesus said it or not, it doesn't really matter. If predestination is in the bible, it is a topic of importance, because the bible was written by God.


Southron:
1)Your verses from 2Cor and 1 Tim don't argue against election at all. Of course God wants all to come to Him. Unfortunately for those who aren't elect, His heart and His desire to carry out His purpose in glorifying Himself are two different things.
2) as some understand slowness. Same as above, but also this I say:
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:22-23.
God has purpose even in condemning those who are deserving. That purpose being, to show His mercy in enduring their sin. We deserve destruction, even those who are not elect are not subject to what they deserve.
3) The passage from 1 Jn also has no bearing on predestination. Under the doctrine of limited atonement, Christ's death was sufficient for all, efficatious to the elect. So, yes, Christ did die for all. Your point in saying that 'Christ died for the whole world' proves nothing against limited atonement, because we both agree.


Shalom.

 

[Sothron]

I have to admit I had a chuckle at this. So when the Scripture very clearly shows that "1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" instead of saying God wants ALL men who in fact means....the Top Hat Winners who are nowhere mentioned in the Scripture.

I submit for inspection my belief that only those born in a kangaroo pouch are the "elect" and since I can not find any Scripture that specifically denies that truth, I proclaim it to be self-evident to all.

There is no need to find Scripture for "free will" since its already a given. God gives all of us the freedom to choose in our moral life whether or not we accept His Word or not. He knows the outcome but He does not influence that decision nor does he inhibit the Top Hat Losers from finding that truth.

No offense to Calvinists but there is no Scripture that comes even close to supporting this idea. I can find as much Scripture to enfoce my kangaroo pouch theory. Jesus and the Scriptures repeat the same message that those who BELIEVE which is a concious CHOICE are those found worthy of salvation. Not the Top Hat Winners who lucked out at the start of creation.

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

You're still avoiding the point. You're putting the emphasis on the all and not on the desires. It is his desire that all men come to Him, but it is not His will. Read the scriptures I posted before.

I can not find any Scripture that specifically denies that truth

I so far have refuted every scripture you've posted, but you continue to use blanket statements for all that I have posted. Look at all those tens of verses I posted on that outline and go through them one at a time. You'll see that I've more than just one verse to fall back on.

There is no need to find Scripture for "free will" since its already a given.

No, it isn't. That's why we're debating. Look at my definition of free will. You'll see that I agree with choice, and that its apparent in the Bible, but not that man's choices have priority over God's.

Shalom

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

You're still avoiding the point. You're putting the emphasis on the all and not on the desires. It is his desire that all men come to Him, but it is not His will. Read the scriptures I posted before.

Funny...that sounds a little bit like a multiple personality disorder...

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

Once again, someone who won't try to refute all the scripture I posted... Aggrevating.

BTW, I like your stewie griffin quote...lol.


Shalom.

 

[Mayflower1]

I have to admit I had a chuckle at this. So when the Scripture very clearly shows that "1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" instead of saying God wants ALL men who in fact means....the Top Hat Winners who are nowhere mentioned in the Scripture.

I submit for inspection my belief that only those born in a kangaroo pouch are the "elect" and since I can not find any Scripture that specifically denies that truth, I proclaim it to be self-evident to all.

There is no need to find Scripture for "free will" since its already a given. God gives all of us the freedom to choose in our moral life whether or not we accept His Word or not. He knows the outcome but He does not influence that decision nor does he inhibit the Top Hat Losers from finding that truth.

No offense to Calvinists but there is no Scripture that comes even close to supporting this idea. I can find as much Scripture to enfoce my kangaroo pouch theory. Jesus and the Scriptures repeat the same message that those who BELIEVE which is a concious CHOICE are those found worthy of salvation. Not the Top Hat Winners who lucked out at the start of creation.

It really is the context of the scripture in my opinion. When I say "Hi all," I don't mean the entire world, I mean you guys. A select group of people. I have been studying predestination and here is what I found.

Luke 2:1 - meaning the Roman Empire
John 12:32- meaning the believers.
Acts 2:39- meaning the chosen Gentiles
11:28 - meaning the Roman Empire
13:10 -meaning all kinds of.
2:17,18 - meaning God's servants

1:1 with John 21:25 meaning all kinds of things
21:28 meaning all kinds of nationalities
22:15 all kinds of people.

and so on...

Also, I would just like to say this... Yes, we have a will, but our will is limited to our nature. What is in a sinful nature that would go anywhere near God's righteousness?

Romans 3:10-12 says, "as it is written, there is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, there is none who seek for God. All have turned aside, all have become useless; There is none who does good, there is not even one."

So therefore if none is righteous, then how are we saved? Through grace alone! Predestination just enhance grace even more because we couldn't even CHOOSE God without Him choosing us? And is it unfair? No! The fair thing would be to send us all to Hell but He didn't! God had to regenerate our souls beforehand so that we could accept Him. Otherwise, our sinful nature is limited to just sin.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm confused as to what is the truth: free will (Christ died for all and if you accept His sacrifice you will be with Him in heaven one day) or predestination (God chose some people for salvation and some for damnation, to show His glory).

Though the term "free" is inappropriate when qualifying the will of man, whether we speak of pre or post Fall man, the terms "free will" and "predestination" do not stand in opposition of each other. "Predestination" and "autonomy," however, do.

So, in answer to your question, all for whom Christ died will accept Him and be with Him in Heaven and those for whom He died were specifically chosen to be saved, though not based on any merit inherent to them.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask for clarification if you need it.

God bless

 

[Mayflower1]

Oh, and here is some scripture over predestination if anyone is interested. It just blew my mind! I was freewill myself until a few months ago!!!

Acts 13:48
John 1:12-13
Philippians 1:29
Romans 8:29 and 30
Ephesians 1:5
Ephesians 1:11

 

[CalvinistSamurai]

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29556477&postcount=26

There's a ton more here. No one will try to refute them though. I'm very anxious to see some thoughts on what scripture says on predestination. People who preach free will like to show scripture on general free agency, but will never take on passages tending towards predestination.

Nice to see someone who also uses scripture.

Shalom.

 

[Reformationist]

I sincerely doubt God sat around in Heaven and one day decided to create humanity and on a whim decided that half (or more) of his creations would be condemned with no choice and the others would be saved despite anything they might do or believe.

I have never nor will ever understand how anyone can think God can be as capricious as that or that Jesus's sacrfice was basically a mulligan since certain people are getting in no matter what.

Why are you doubting a profession that no one is endorsing? Or is it that you are simply ignorant of what predestination is?

I do not believe in the slightest God would arbitrarily select some of his creations and condemn the others.

Who said God's choice was arbitrary?

I believe John 3 silences quite effectively silences the Calvinists:


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Take note that the emphasis on "the world" and that anyone who believes will not be condmened. Please note Jesus did not add a separate list for all the lucky people who God picked out of the Heavenly Top Hat. God gave man the freedom to determine his own spiritual life. Hence why Jesus was sent for the world not the "elect".

Ironically, John 3:16,17 is one of the verses which most emphatically supports the reformed view. Not only do you consider the imperative and assume the indicative, what that passage says, and quite explicitly at that, is that God sent His Son to save believers. It is nonsensical to claim that God loved all people without exception so much that He sent His only begotten Son to atone for only some of them. Your ignorance of predestination is utterly reprehensible.

Tell me, are you willing to apply the same universalistic nuance to other uses of the word kosmos or are you willing to acknowledge that there are times when "the world" means "all people without exception" and others when it means "all people without distinction?"

So when the Scripture very clearly shows that "1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" instead of saying God wants ALL men who in fact means....the Top Hat Winners who are nowhere mentioned in the Scripture.

Tell me, if God desires all without exception to be saved, what frustrates God's desire from coming to fruition, or do you believe that all without exception will be saved?

 

[Rick Otto]

"There is no need to find Scripture for "free will" since its already a given."

I missed where it was given
I thought Omniscience & Omnipotence make predestination a given.