Predestination v free will compromise?

[Hammster]

This certainly does not say God the Father predestined these to salvation.


Actually, quite the opposite if you keep reading the context.


Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:1-9


Peter plainly teaches that if your faith being tested under the fire of persecution shows to be genuine, to the praise, honor and glory of Jesus Christ, then you will receive the salvation of your soul, at the end of your faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JLB

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. You can’t just skip past that.

 

[Hammster]

The following speaker is none other than Christ proposing just that.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

That said, are you saying you disagree with Christ? Did you know Christ, in whom we are to believe in is our example of doing good? He didn't just tell us, he showed us what to do, and told us what would happen if we chose not to do do good.

Do you think we can say we believe in Christ if we do not obey him and heed his warnings? I don't see how that can be possible.

Maybe some context.


“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
— John 5:24-25

Who has eternal life?

And when asked what works should be done,

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
— John 6:29

Looks like He’s saying faith is what saves. Same thing Paul says.

 

[sdowney717]

All of humanity is guilty before God, and cannot choose to believe in, love, or, seek God...nor have the desire to do so. Our nature is sinful, depraved, and we are ALL worthy of God's wrath, and punishment...This is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. People have to grasp this before UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION will make sense.

Before the foundation of the world, God chose those he would bring to salvation, by his grace, through faith in his Son. This choice was not made because there was anything special, or, different in the person, nor did God look through the tunnel of time, and see who was going to believe, and then predestined them, nor was it a type of military muster where every third person was chosen...This is UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Those predestined had their names written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

All of humanity is depraved, and justly deserving of God's wrath, punishment, and condemnation. Although, we are all guilty before a holy and just God he has chosen to have mercy on some, others, he has passed by and they receive justice, but no one receives injustice

As to your hybrid theory, I don't remember reading anything in scripture to support it.

And this was true for them in the Old Covenant as well. Paul quotes God's response to Moses and uses that to tell us it is not about those who wills or those who run, salvation is about the mercy and compassion of God according to His own purpose and will, His choice not our own, And Jesus tells us the same things in Luke 10, and its a truth He rejoices in.

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

 

[Redwingfan9]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

You may find this passage from Matthew Henry's commentary on Romans 9 helpful:

The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church privileges. Not only some of Abraham's seed were chosen, and others not, but God therein wrought according to the counsel of his own will. God foresaw both Esau and Jacob as born in sin, by nature children of wrath even as others. If left to themselves they would have continued in sin through life; but for wise and holy reasons, not made known to us, he purposed to change Jacob's heart, and to leave Esau to his perverseness. This instance of Esau and Jacob throws light upon the Divine conduct to the fallen race of man. The whole Scripture shows the difference between the professed Christian and the real believer. Outward privileges are bestowed on many who are not the children of God. There is, however, full encouragement to diligent use of the means of grace which God has appointed.

 

[His student]

the 4th would be God helps some to help themselves in salvation.

That's #2. Already accounted for.

2) God helps those who help themselves in salvation (popular today)

Actually no - my number 4 is the opposite of your number 2.

#2 says that God gives help because people have helped themselves first.

#4 says that people help themselves because God has helped them first.

The 2nd is salvation by faith through grace.

The 4th is salvation by grace through faith.

 

[renniks]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

Some are chosen for certain jobs, like Paul and Jeremiah, and Abraham. Not for salvation.

 

[Jonaitis]

Do we deserve eternal damnation for our sins? Well, then it isn't wrong on God's part to leave the rebellious and reprobate sinner to die in his/her sin - it is what he/she deserves. In saying that it is "evil" for God to predestine a few, and not others, is saying that God is obligated to be gracious and merciful and that we are entitled to have such things. God owes no one anything, and if he decides to save a few then it is perfectly just.

 

[WanderedHome]

I am no longer Calvinist, but when I was, I learned about this in bible college. The idea of "double-predestination", that God chooses some to salvation and chooses others for hell, is not really a thing and is simply a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Predestination.

Common grace is available to ALL people, both the "predestined" and "non-predestined". Everyone has the opportunity to come to saving faith through that grace. Predestination is the idea that there is a group of people whom God directly helps by an "active" grace to find salvation. Some are "predestined" to receive that grace, but that doesn't mean that by default everyone else is doomed to Hell. Everyone has the chance, so that they are without excuse (romans 1:20).

In the Orthodox view, which is where I am now, God calls ("awakens") man to salvation, but man has to respond by faith. Salvation is synergy- where man cooperates with God. This does not mean "faith plus man's good works", but that by faith and the power of Christ working in us through the Holy Spirit, God helps us do the works necessary to attain salvation. We are saved, as Paul puts it, by "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6).

 

[Hammster]

Some are chosen for certain jobs, like Paul and Jeremiah, and Abraham. Not for salvation.

And salvation. 1 Peter 1:1-3

 

[renniks]

And salvation. 1 Peter 1:1-3

Elect according to God's foreknowledge...
According to Bullinger’s Critical Greek Lexicon, the verb foreknow means “to know, perceive, learn or understand beforehand, to take note of.
God choosing based on foreknowledge is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

 

[Butch5]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

No worries my friend. God doesn't predestine some to be saved and some not to. That whole idea isn't what the Scriptures teach. That's a doctrine from men. It's strange to watch people debate this when it's not even a Biblical doctrine. If you look at the Scriptures closely, you'll find that when the Bible speaks of Predestination, it's speaking of Israel. It's not talking about them being saved. It's talking about them as a people who came from Abraham. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation. God had predetermined or predestined the nation of Israel in that promise to Abraham. So, don't fret over a doctrine from men. God gives all the chance to be saved.

 

[Hammster]

Elect according to God's foreknowledge...
According to Bullinger’s Critical Greek Lexicon, the verb foreknow means “to know, perceive, learn or understand beforehand, to take note of.
God choosing based on foreknowledge is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

God knows us beforehand. That’s not hard to understand. So it’s exactly what Reformed Theology teaches because that’s scripture.

 

[Hammster]

No worries my friend. God doesn't predestine some to be saved and some not to. That whole idea isn't what the Scriptures teach. That's a doctrine from men. It's strange to watch people debate this when it's not even a Biblical doctrine. If you look at the Scriptures closely, you'll find that when the Bible speaks of Predestination, it's speaking of Israel. It's not talking about them being saved. It's talking about them as a people who came from Abraham. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation. God had predetermined or predestined the nation of Israel in that promise to Abraham. So, don't fret over a doctrine from men. God gives all the chance to be saved.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

 

[renniks]

God knows us beforehand. That’s not hard to understand. So it’s exactly what Reformed Theology teaches because that’s scripture.

No, reformed theology teaches God chooses for reasons we can't know. Scripture says we are marked with a seal when we believe.

 

[Butch5]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

Yep, if you read that in context you'll find that in chapter 2 Paul turned his attention to and began to address the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. He continued that address through chapter 11. Romans 8 is addressed to the Jewish believers in the church and is speaking of those who God foreknow or knew before. Those God knew before were men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. Note that all of the verbs are in the part tense. Those God foreknew had also already been glorified.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;1
(Rom. 2:17-18 KJV)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)

 

[renniks]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

He's speaking of the OT saints, those he knew in former times. Because God was faithful to him, we know he will be faithful to us. It's not about how people are saved.

 

[Butch5]

Elect according to God's foreknowledge...
According to Bullinger’s Critical Greek Lexicon, the verb foreknow means “to know, perceive, learn or understand beforehand, to take note of.
God choosing based on foreknowledge is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

Good point. Another point is that that verse is poorly translated. It shows translator bias. It doesn't actually say "elect according to the foreknowledge of God. The word translated elect, eklectos, is actually in verse 1. Here is Young's literal translation.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1 Pet. 1:1-2 YLT)

The word "choice" in Young's translation is the Greek word "eklectos" which is usually translated elect. The KJV and many other translations have move it from the verse 1 to verse 2.

Πέτρος ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας καὶ Βιθυνίας (1 Pet. 1:1 BGT)

I've bolded the word choice or elect in the verse above. As you can see in the Greek text it's in verse one.

What is according to God's foreknowledge, or before knowing is, "grace to you and peace be multiplied".

2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1 Pet. 1:2 YLT)

In modern English we would put "Grace to you and peace be multiplied" at the beginning, in front of the clause "according to the foreknowledge of God." It would read,

Grace to you and peace be multiplied, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in Sanctification of the Spirit, to the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Again, 1 Peter is addressed to the Jewish believers who are scattered in the cities Peter listed.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The Greek word translated dispersion is "diaspora" it's a term that was used of the Jews who were scattered among the nations.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

totally against the nature of love and grace.

To expand on your comment, it is totally against the entire character of God the Father.

 

[Hammster]

No, reformed theology teaches God chooses for reasons we can't know. Scripture says we are marked with a seal when we believe.

Yes. Both are true.

 

[Hammster]

Yep, if you read that in context you'll find that in chapter 2 Paul turned his attention to and began to address the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. He continued that address through chapter 11. Romans 8 is addressed to the Jewish believers in the church and is speaking of those who God foreknow or knew before. Those God knew before were men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. Note that all of the verbs are in the part tense. Those God foreknew had also already been glorified.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;1
(Rom. 2:17-18 KJV)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)

okay.