Predestination v free will compromise?

[ByTheSpirit]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

 

[Hammster]

just excludes multitudes for whatever reason.

When you start off with a false premise, you will end up with a false conclusion. It’s not “for whatever reason”. It’s because they are sinners and deserve God’s wrath.

 

[SkyWriting]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason.

Since nobody promotes that idea
it's nothing you need to worry about.



Romans 8
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Joshua 1
9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”

Jeremiah 29
11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

 

[sdowney717]

Since nobody promotes that idea
it's nothing to worry about.



Romans 8
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

And why does anyone love God?
We love God because He first loved us.
He manifests that love towards us by making us born of God and a part of His family.
Because of His great love towards you, you were saved by His grace.

 

[Dave L]

What you will find are 3 answers to this question. Summarised as 1) God alone saves sinners. 2) God helps those who help themselves in salvation (popular today). and 3) people save themselves apart from God's help. But only one is true.

 

[SkyWriting]

And why does anyone love God?
We love God because He first loved us.
He manifests that love towards us by making us born of God and a part of His family.
Because of His great love towards you, you were saved by His grace.

And so, I am not worried.

 

[SkyWriting]

free will vs predestination.

Our future is in God's memory. Mystery solved.

 

[sdowney717]

We were not like the others, God loved us with such a great love (it is His right to love greatly whomever He wills and not someone else), that HE made us acceptable to Him by making us born again. He did this while we were still following the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, so there were no good things we were doing at the time, we were not seeking God's face, as no one seeks for God.

Ephesians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 BUT God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The US in verse 4 is not all mankind as He did not save all men. Those God loves with such a great love, God saves and not the others, not the rest on mankind.

 

[Dave-W]

When you start off with a false premise, you will end up with a false conclusion. It’s not “for whatever reason”. It’s because they are sinners and deserve God’s wrath.

But that is EVERYBODY.

“For all have sinned and fall short ...”

 

[Dave-W]

I would submit that trying to analyze scripture from a western Greek (pagan) logic framework is fraught with problems.

In Hebrew logic, both (seemingly self contradictory) positions can be true at the same time.

 

[Hammster]

But that is EVERYBODY.

“For all have sinned and fall short ...”

I know. That’s what we all deserve.

 

[Albion]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

1. No hybridization of the two can work. The one cancels out the other.

2. It looks like you are confusing predestination (being elected to faith and, therefore, salvation) with being selected by God for a special role in life.

3. We need always to be careful about defining what 'love' means in God's case. As with many other of God's doings and qualities, much about him is above our level of comprehension. Recall that when we were children, we thought our parents weren't being loving towards us when they kept us from doing something we thought was innocent fun but would actually have harmed us.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

Don't struggle with something that is clearly poppycock.

We are here so God can filter out who will act right and be accepted in his forever world, and who will not. If predestination were a fact there would be no need for any of us to take this test. God would already know who gets the prize and who does not.

We (everyone) are destined for heaven as long as we do the will of the Father, and there is no mistaking what that is, it's splattered all over the bible.

 

[Hammster]

We are here so God can filter out who will act right and be accepted in his forever world, and who will not.

How do you know that you are acting right enough?

 

[Kenny'sID]

How do you know that you are acting right enough?

Strange to ask such a thing when I just told you. Or is that supposed to end in if we can't act right enough, we might as well not worry about it? At least that's what I gather as the reason it's asked around here so much on threads such as this. If I misunderstood, would you please clue me in on why that particular question is used so often here and elsewhere, when the bible is clear on the matter?

Anyway, like I said:

do the will of the Father, and there is no mistaking what that is, it's splattered all over the bible.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What you will find are 3 answers to this question. Summarised as 1) God alone saves sinners. 2) God helps those who help themselves in salvation (popular today). and 3) people save themselves apart from God's help. But only one is true.

Whoever created those questions clearly had an agenda, and part of that agenda was to be extremely deceptive deceptive.

Anyone else see that for exactly what it is and what it attempts to do to the unaware?

Can you please give examples of groups/denominations and such who teach those 3 separate outlooks so we can look into each a little deeper?

 

[Dave L]

Whoever created those questions clearly had an agenda, and part of that agenda was to be extremely deceptive deceptive.

Anyone else see that for exactly what it is and what it attempts to do to the unaware?

Can you please give examples of groups/denominations and such who teach those 3 separate outlooks so we can look into each a little deeper?

How can the only 3 possibilities explaining salvation be deceptive? Do you know of a 4th possibility? Are you being deceptive suggesting these are deceptive?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ok so the distinct response I'm seeing thus far, and the one I fully expected is the "we all deserve to die so just saving some shows God's merciful" response.

Ok, that's fair.

But the basic idea of predestination is (at least according to Calvin):

God chooses who gets saved, and all others are damned without ever having hope for salvation.

Am I right?

To me a good mesh of MERCY FOR SOME "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." (Rom 8:29-30)

and MERCY FOR ALL "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is that God predestines some, and for the vast majority of all others grants them free will to choose. Fault my logic if that makes you feel better about yourself or bible knowledge, but explain to me how God wants all people to repent but never grants them the opportunity because they weren't predestined.

 

[Hammster]

Strange to ask such a thing when I just told you. Or is that supposed to end in if we can't act right enough, we might as well not worry about it? At least that's what I gather as the reason it's asked around here so much on threads such as this. If I misunderstood, would you please clue me in on why that particular question is used so often here and elsewhere, when the bible is clear on the matter?

Anyway, like I said:

You said what we are to do. But you didn’t answer how you know that you are acting right enough.

 

[Hammster]

Ok so the distinct response I'm seeing thus far, and the one I fully expected is the "we all deserve to die so just saving some shows God's merciful" response.

Ok, that's fair.

But the basic idea of predestination is (at least according to Calvin):

God chooses who gets saved, and all others are damned without ever having hope for salvation.

Am I right?

To me a good mesh of MERCY FOR SOME "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." (Rom 8:29-30)

and MERCY FOR ALL "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is that God predestines some, and for the vast majority of all others grants them free will to choose. Fault my logic if that makes you feel better about yourself or bible knowledge, but explain to me how God wants all people to repent but never grants them the opportunity because they weren't predestined.

Not to pick nits, but let’s get our terminology right. God the Father elects us to salvation. Those elected are predestined to be conformed.