Predestination v free will compromise?

Dave L

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Actually no - my number 4 is the opposite of your number 2.

#2 says that God gives help because people have helped themselves first.

#4 says that people help themselves because God has helped them first.

The 2nd is salvation by faith through grace.

The 4th is salvation by grace through faith.
It's the same in no certain order. God helps those who help themselves.
 
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Norbert L

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Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.
It doesn't work like that for the select few people we find the pages of the Bible. These select few people also have the ability to choose faith or not just like the 99% Esther 4:14.
 
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Aussie Pete

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So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.
It's a tough question. For believers, there is great comfort in knowing that God chose us. And that in spite of all that we are and are not. I do not know on what basis God chooses, except "according to foreknowledge". Does that mean God chose those he knew would accept Christ? I don't know. I do know that I do not know who is predestined. So I assume everyone has an equal opportunity of being saved. I've given up trying to second guess God. All I get is a migraine. God is love, perfectly righteous, just and faultless in all His ways. That's my start and finish point whenever I have apparent contradictions in my understanding. I do know that God is not obliged to save anyone. Everyone is born a sinner. If not for God's mercy and grace, no one would be saved. Things make a little more sense if you look at salvation that way.
 
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JLB777

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There is. You obviously deny it. No point continuing.


Ok. If you don’t want to continue, I understand.


The phrase elected for salvation is certainly not found in the passage you indicated. If it was you would post it for us.


Believing and therefore obeying the Lord is a choice, each of us must make in order to be saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Here we see the word salvation is plainly mentioned, and the condition that must be met, for eternal salvation to be granted.


If salvation comes by election, then it would not be available to all...

If salvation comes by election, then it would be not be by choice, for all who obey Him.


Please consider these things.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Does He not have the full and exclusive right to what He wants, and "whatever He wants", with (all of) His own things...?


Is it His will that anyone should perish?

He can do whatever He chooses to do with His creation.

God has chosen to given mankind the ability to choose to obey Him or not.

We are created in His image and in His likeness, and since He has the ability to choose, He has created that ability in mankind as well.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7




And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15





JLB
 
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bling

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When you start off with a false premise, you will end up with a false conclusion. It’s not “for whatever reason”. It’s because they are sinners and deserve God’s wrath.
“They are sinners and deserve God’s wrath” like “they” are different for all of “us”?

They OP does not know the reason for some being saved and others not being saved and leaves it with “for whatever reason”, so what is your reason for God doing it?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.
Yahuweh's Love and Grace, AND , Judgment and Justice and Righteousness, AND Mercy and Kindness and Lovingkindnesses (new and fresh every morning), AND everything totally and completely
is Perfect and Cannot In Any Way BE Better.
 
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sdowney717

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“They are sinners and deserve God’s wrath” like “they” are different for all of “us”?

They OP does not know the reason for some being saved and others not being saved and leaves it with “for whatever reason”, so what is your reason for God doing it?
God's electing great love for some and not for the others, for His own particular purpose and will.
God does what He does. If God does not give to you a new heart that can and will believe in Christ, then the old carnal mind you are naturally born with remains at enmity with God and will never follow or believe in Christ. The carnal mind follows after desiring the lusts of the flesh and follows after Satan the prince of the powers of the air.

Example here
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 
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Hammster

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“They are sinners and deserve God’s wrath” like “they” are different for all of “us”?

They OP does not know the reason for some being saved and others not being saved and leaves it with “for whatever reason”, so what is your reason for God doing it?
Because He chose to have mercy on some.
 
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bling

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Because He chose to have mercy on some.
God is merciful and not just merciful to some and unmerciful to others.

If God is only merciful to some than He is not merciful Daniel 9:9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;

Ro. 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In this verse “everyone” is disobedient, for it certainly is not just the elect that are disobedient, so God has (or is extending) mercy on everyone who is disobedient.

So God is not as you say only “having mercy on some”.

The problem not with God lacking any Love (Love being: mercy, grace, charity, forgiving and kind), but it is with man just humbly accepting God’s Love, mercy, grace, charity, forgiveness and kindness. Accepting a gift is not work by the Biblical definition of work, and is not something worthy of a reward.

You make God’s lack of Love the reason for humans going to hell, when the problem is man’s lack of acceptance.
 
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God is merciful and not just merciful to some and unmerciful to others.

What you just promoted is not only unbiblical, it’s promoting universalism.
 
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the last child

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Are you referring to salvation as in being born again, or are you referring to receiving the salvation of your soul at the end of your faith?


JLB

well, Eph 4:8-9 says that we are saved by grace not by works, so works + Christ can not equal salvation, so no one gets bragging rights except God. We are to obey and do good works for the process of sanctification, or being made holy or more into the image of Christ, after we are saved, but not as a prerequisite for salvation. And I’ve never heard of two different phases of salvation. That’s interesting.
 
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the last child

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God is merciful and not just merciful to some and unmerciful to others.

If God is only merciful to some than He is not merciful Daniel 9:9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;

Ro. 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In this verse “everyone” is disobedient, for it certainly is not just the elect that are disobedient, so God has (or is extending) mercy on everyone who is disobedient.

So God is not as you say only “having mercy on some”.

The problem not with God lacking any Love (Love being: mercy, grace, charity, forgiving and kind), but it is with man just humbly accepting God’s Love, mercy, grace, charity, forgiveness and kindness. Accepting a gift is not work by the Biblical definition of work, and is not something worthy of a reward.

You make God’s lack of Love the reason for humans going to hell, when the problem is man’s lack of acceptance.

I think I kinda see what you’re trying to say...maybe? That God extended His “mercy” and “love” (in the form of salvation thru Christ) to everyone, so that it is available to all, but only those who accept it will receive it. And are you then saying that acceptance of this gift should not be considered a “work” ...and that the problem isn’t that God isn’t loving enough it’s that man doesn’t choose to accept this gift from Him....is this correct? Bc otherwise your argument could be misread....
 
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the last child

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Are you referring to salvation as in being born again, or are you referring to receiving the salvation of your soul at the end of your faith?


JLB

well, Eph 4:
All of humanity is guilty before God, and cannot choose to believe in, love, or, seek God...nor have the desire to do so. Our nature is sinful, depraved, and we are ALL worthy of God's wrath, and punishment...This is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. People have to grasp this before UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION will make sense.

Before the foundation of the world, God chose those he would bring to salvation, by his grace, through faith in his Son. This choice was not made because there was anything special, or, different in the person, nor did God look through the tunnel of time, and see who was going to believe, and then predestined them, nor was it a type of military muster where every third person was chosen...This is UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Those predestined had their names written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

All of humanity is depraved, and justly deserving of God's wrath, punishment, and condemnation. Although, we are all guilty before a holy and just God he has chosen to have mercy on some, others, he has passed by and they receive justice, but no one receives injustice

As to your hybrid theory, I don't remember reading anything in scripture to support it.

Wow such a hostile attitude! That came off rather arrogant, tbh, as if you were somehow the chosen rep that surely must have been there when God did all this and gave you the exclusive inside scripture interpretation! I’m not sure if I should applaude you first or run and sign up for your exegetical book first! Wait, maybe if I angle my iPad I can do both at the same time!!!...

When people speak in bold declarative statements with no room for humility or possibility of error in interpretation—especially in regards to Scripture, or start talking down to newcomers, that’s usually a good time to either get out your paparazzi autograph markers or run for cover. Thank your for the warm welcome to my first forum here :)
 
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the last child

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Good point. Another point is that that verse is poorly translated. It shows translator bias. It doesn't actually say "elect according to the foreknowledge of God. The word translated elect, eklectos, is actually in verse 1. Here is Young's literal translation.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1 Pet. 1:1-2 YLT)

The word "choice" in Young's translation is the Greek word "eklectos" which is usually translated elect. The KJV and many other translations have move it from the verse 1 to verse 2.

Πέτρος ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας καὶ Βιθυνίας (1 Pet. 1:1 BGT)

I've bolded the word choice or elect in the verse above. As you can see in the Greek text it's in verse one.

What is according to God's foreknowledge, or before knowing is, "grace to you and peace be multiplied".

2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1 Pet. 1:2 YLT)

In modern English we would put "Grace to you and peace be multiplied" at the beginning, in front of the clause "according to the foreknowledge of God." It would read,

Grace to you and peace be multiplied, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in Sanctification of the Spirit, to the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Again, 1 Peter is addressed to the Jewish believers who are scattered in the cities Peter listed.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The Greek word translated dispersion is "diaspora" it's a term that was used of the Jews who were scattered among the nations.
Hi, I saw this on the front page I didn't read the other posts, but just wanted to share this real quick.

I am Presbyterian and had always been taught about predestination my entire life. What I am about to discuss is information I believe I have come to know through reading God's word and prayer.

So first thing is everyone is predestined because God knows everything. Some people think because God knows what will happen that this means we do not get to choose, but this is not true. Just because God knows what you or anybody will choose before you choose it doesn't mean you don't have free will. God simply knows what you will choose before you choose. This is like if you were to know the future does suddenly everybody from the parts of the future you know not have free will? Free will does not require not knowing what someone will choose. Free will requires that someone has the capability to make a decision without being forced to come to that decision.

Now when it comes to salvation, God predestined certain people to be saved by how he designed salvation. God wanted only humble people who choose to love him to be saved. He did this by becoming human and then dying in very humble way to confound the proud and fool those who lust after power.

Here's an example if the previous explanation did not suffice. If God wanted to save only the rich he would have designed salvation so that only those with large sums of money would be saved. If God wanted to save only the famous he would have designed salvation so that only those with a certain amount fame would be saved. If God wanted to save only the talented he would have designed salvation so that only those with so much talent would be saved. The thing is he didn't. He wants those who honestly love him to be saved, those who are humble , those who need a savior.

Paraphrasing from scripture, if there was a man with debt and one with a greater debt and they were both forgiven of their debts, who would love the one who released them of their debts more?

Today many people do not even think they have done any wrong or don't care, so guess how much they care when they are told their debts are forgiven. This is the way God has predestined those who are saved and those who are not. God has designed salvation so that the people who choose to love him and seek him will be the ones that are saved, not those with the most money, fame, talent or what have you. So if this true this means he has also predestined those who choose not to love or seek him to not be saved.

Sometimes talking on forums is fun, but get answers from God himself and reading God's word. If you have questions do not be afraid to ask God. He wants you to ask him. God wants you to talk to him. He wants to have a relationship with you. When I asked he has answered me every time, just sometimes in ways I didn't expect, and sometimes I didn't realize he gave me answer, and sometimes it seemed to take a very long time. But remember God is good and gives wisdom to those who ask.


WOW I have never heard it framed quite that way! That’s very interesting...it makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. It will be interesting to read the reactions. I’m learning a lot today and that is great! I for one am thankful you shared that thank you :)
 
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Butch5

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WOW I have never heard it framed quite that way! That’s very interesting...it makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. It will be interesting to read the reactions. I’m learning a lot today and that is great! I for one am thankful you shared that thank you :)
You're welcome! Glad I could help.
 
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Neogaia777

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Does God save/choose, or do you?

Are there things or possible outcomes based on our choices that God has no knowledge of?

Cause if there are or is, then it would seem that we are actually God and Saviors of ourselves and He is not, etc...

Oh, and about the word "elect" or election meaning "choice", it still means God's choosing and choice and not ours...

Peace

God Bless!
 
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JLB777

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well, Eph 4:8-9 says that we are saved by grace not by works, so works + Christ can not equal salvation, so no one gets bragging rights except God. We are to obey and do good works for the process of sanctification, or being made holy or more into the image of Christ, after we are saved, but not as a prerequisite for salvation. And I’ve never heard of two different phases of salvation. That’s interesting.

Yes of course we are saved, born again, regenerated by grace, through faith. Amen.


This is the beginning of our faith, when we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, in which we are now “in Christ”.


Once this is accomplished we must remain “in Christ”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


  • If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch


Here is how, this same John instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


  • he who keeps His commandments abides in Him


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB
 
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Butch5

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Does God save/choose, or do you?

Are there things or possible outcomes based on our choices that God has no knowledge of?

Cause if there are or is, then it would seem that we are actually God and Saviors of ourselves and He is not, etc...

Oh, and about the word "elect" or election meaning "choice", it still means God's choosing and choice and not ours...

Peace

God Bless!

You first statement is a non sequitur. If all things and possible outcomes were based on our choices it would not make us gods. Nor would it detract from God in any way. Your premise is simply a logical fallacy.

Actually, the word simply means to choose. It can refer to anything. In the Bible Gods elect is Isrsel.
 
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......God Bless!
Brother -

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders why you quote your previous post each time and then replay to yourself.:scratch:

You should quote the other guy and then reply to his thought.

Otherwise no one knows who and what you are addressing and you end up with a string of posts where you are talking to yourself.:)
 
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