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Predestination is not the issue, regeneration is

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Skala, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Regeneration the word itself is a word that only Calvinists use with any regularity. The fact that you even define it apart from the Bible show it's a term. And you even have two kinds.

    This thread only even imagines that the Calvinist theology is correct.

    Don't use the term Christians because this thread is not about Christians, but about Calvinist theology in Christianity, such a small micro segement of Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  2. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    No it's not. Here's a link to an Arminian website (quoting Jacob Arminius himself) talking about regeneration...

    Arminius on Regeneration
     
  3. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I said only Calvinists use the word. Word use is how a word is used. Present day, when this word is used, Arminius is dead.

    Maybe you didn't understand what I meant when I said word use.
     
  4. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    To the lost, to the despairing, I tell them that Jesus has shown the true face of God, who is love. Jesus definitively proved that God exists (since knowing this is the first step of faith, reversing Adam's effective denial of God's godhood), that God is infinitely trustworthy, good, and true (reversing the "distorted image of God", as its been put, that man conceived of at the Fall), that God is infinitely patient, merciful, and forgiving-even self-sacrificing. God's nature is basically described in 1 Cor 13. IOW, goodness and love are foundational to the universe we live in. And the eternal life that Jesus taught and gave witness to via His resurrection means that this love and the existence it gave us is eternal as well. We simply need to respond to it, to want it, to want Him. That's faith.

    The word is preached, and our response is required, and the exact dynamics of how that all works is contested, but the point is that always our response is required. And that's not guaranteed. The will is actually the prize. This was so with Adam-and it's still the case now. We're to choose: between life and death, good and evil, God or no God.

    Faith is the beginning of our justification. What we do with it from there on, also with the help of grace, determines our salvation. People aren't dumb-we already know this intuitively. We must continue to walk justly even as He works in us, doing the justifying. God wants, God loves, God covets our cooperation. That's essentially the message of the Parable of the Talents. He wants us to grow up, to do our investing; He wants big things for us. He knows better than ourselves what we are capable of, what we're made of and made for. He wants us to be pure of heart, in order to enter heaven, in order to even be capable of seeing Him, that divine vision being what makes heaven what it is.

    Humans are obligated to do the right thing-this has always been the case. We cannot shirk that obligation. And that obligation is most concisely defined by the Greatest Commandments. Love, as we know, excludes sin by its nature. Love of God and neighbor is how the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:34 is fulfilled in us. Love is the image of God we're to be transformed into. Love is the basis of the "righteousness of God", which is to be our righteousness. That's the justice God wants in us, and that we must cooperate with in achieving. Faith, alone, doesn't guarantee entrance into heaven. Love does. "...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

    And I believe there are even people outside the fold who nonetheless receive and respond to grace without ever hearing or knowing the word, and who therefore love, and who therefore treat the "least of these" with compassion, as the sheep in Matt 25:31-46 do. "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love." John of the Cross. Love is Good News; it makes the world right and makes life worth living. People need to know. They need to know that there's an alternative to this world's values. So that they can hunger and thirst for it, for righteousness, for God. We're obligated to it-but God won't force it, won't force Himself, upon us. Scripture makes that clear with all of its admonitions- to believers.

    Anyway, we can't rest on our self-assessed level of faith; fruit, born of love, must be there. And it's by that fruit, combined with the knowledge of God and His love, that we can know that we, ourselves, are His. But human weakness, limitations, and sin should and will always give pause for humility and less than perfect certainty; God is true while we're the wildcard. People also know this intuitively. So our level of assurance is strong, just not perfect until that time when we fully know and are fully known.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  5. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    Regeneration is a fact of Christianity, perhaps the only fact worth getting an understanding of , so no, it is not a Calvanistic term. What the op is saying is that rebirth is what counts not what gets you to there.

    5 aspects of Regeneration
    1)God the author
    2)Holy Spirit the agent
    3)Word of God the means
    4)Begotten by faith the instrument
    5)Precious blood of Christ the basis.

    1)Author- Born of God
    (God is the author of the plan of salvation and Jesus is the wisdom of God)
    John 1:12-13
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    1 Corinthians 1:30
    But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God?and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

    2)Holy Spirit is the active agent
    (we must have a new father to give us a new nature)(Holy Spirit begets not a body but a life)(the life of God is in possession of the child of God)
    John 3:5-6
    Jesus answered, ?Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    3)Word of God is the means
    (Where the Word of God is not preached, there can't be the miricle of new birth, for the Word of God is the means that the Spirit of God uses to accomplish the new birth)
    1 Peter 1:23
    23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    1 Peter 1:3
    A Heavenly Inheritance
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    (the greatest demonstration of God's power)
    (new birth=manifestation of God's great power)

    4)Faith is the instrument
    (hand outstretched to receive)(response to facts of the gospel presented by the Word of God)
    (Facts received and believed=new birth)
    Galatians 3:26
    children of God and Heirs
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    John 1:12
    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

    5)Precious blood of Christ is the bases
    (basis of calling on the Father)
    1 Peter 1:17-19
    And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one?s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Well that's pretty weak because in none of that have you actually said that Jesus has saved them through his death and resurrection. You have alot of vague stuff about love, mery, etc., is true, doesn't cut to the heart of their spiritual condition. My pastor can tell a despairing sinner that they are forgiven because Jesus loves them and died for them, and our theology proves it. I'm not sure what Catholic theology is doing, other than metaphysical speculation.

    Our theology is precisely for those broken, especially broken by religion.
     
  7. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for making my point.

    You have listed 5 different topics the term regeneration is said to encompass.

    It is a term used in Calvinism usually to describe a process. I don't even see the term in your verses which only further makes my point.

    It is a man enabled term used in Calvinism to describe a process.
     
  8. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    It's another term for rebirth brought about thru those means. I really get tired of denoms trying to own scripture and then declaring that those who adhere to it adhere to Peter or Paul or anyone but Christ
     
  9. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's not what I said either.

    I said that it is a term mostly used by Calvinists to describe a theological position in Calvinism.

    You listed all the scripture and itstead of letting it stand on it's own, 'you' chose to tie it to the term.

    So you did exactly what you chastised above. You tied all that scripture to the term 'regeneration' or in your words 'you' adhered it to Peter or Paul (or in this case a Calvinism term).
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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  11. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    No I didn't. It's not a Canvanistic term. It's scriptural. They dont have dibs on scripture. Instead of being critical of my post by trying to align it to Calvanism maybe just address the scripture in the post that doesn`t align with the needs to accomplish rebirth.
    Titus 3:5
    Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    "washing of regeneration" = baptism. That's how Lutherans understand it. That's how most non-Protestants understand it as well.
     
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    How is rebirth described to a Lutheran
     
  14. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    We don't think of it as something separated from baptism. We do acknowledge there is a process of growth in the Christian life, but we don't focus on it or think about it in the same way other Christians do.

    Baptism is a major theme in our faith and spirituality. At my church we often sing this song at baptisms. It's a great hymn written by a Lutheran hymwriter (John Ylvisaker) back in the 60's, and sums up that aspect of the Lutheran life in a modern context:

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  16. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    That process of growth most nonlitergical Protestants call sanctification.
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Yes, that's what we'ld call it too, though for us we think of sanctification simply as living out what God has made us to be through our baptism, in the context of our individual callings. We don't think of it so much in terms of moral progress or individual holiness.
     
  18. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    What`s the difference between `the context of our individual callings` and `in terms of moral progress or individual holiness`

    To me that sounds like the 2 different baptisms of the Holy Spirit. The first being Christ`s breath within believers (new life) that is sealed for their living and the second being a mantle for service without (Pentecostal experience)
     
  19. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yes, but it's also known as regeneration. See Institutes, 3.3. Also Packer's article, Regeneration by J.I.Packer.
    Right, but let's look at concepts rather than words. Arminians believe, with Calvinists, that man is unable even to respond to God as a result of the fall. God must restore our will first. Calvinists call this regeneration, Arminians prevenient grace (though Packer uses prevenient grace himself in the article just quoted). For both it is God restoring our wills. However Calvinists think God leaves our wills in a state where they definitely will respond to his call, and Arminians believe he leaves them in a state where they are able to but won't necessarily respond to his call. That is certainly a difference, but the schemes are closer than sometimes described. Both involve regeneration.
     
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    That's a huge question and I'd have to unpack it a bit, and use some examples.

    To use one timely example, we would tend to different from evangelical Christians in things like the dispute over whether Christians can serve gays who are having marriage ceremonies. We would tend to say yes, we are free to do that, even if we might agree that same-sex marriage is not God's ideal, but other Christian groups see the need to uphold God's "glory". We don't think this is a proper understanding of our duties to our neighbor within our vocations, or God's glory.

    Our love for God is best expressed through serving our neighbor without distinction (just as God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust), and not usually through upholding abstract principles. People always come first. God does not need our glory, he has glorified himself far more through the Cross of Jesus than any human is capable. God's glory is his mercy towards sinners.

    So our ethics differ significantly here, we are less concerned with our individual purity. Our ethic is focused on compassion for our neighbor and ensuring that their welfare is protected through just laws, fair business dealings, acts of kindness, etc., and less on perceived personal or group purity. The reasons for this are too deep to get into, but needless to say it's down to our theology and practice. We are both declared righteous and yet thoroughly sinful in this life, and at the same time, our lives are complicated, therefore our ethics must be more complicated than simply seeking to absolve ourselves of guilt.

    Traditionally, we are far less polemical than many American evangelicals, we do not see a mandate to change culture necessarily, in the way other evangelicals do. We can be clannish ethnic and religious enclaves at times, but when it comes to culture issues, we believe seriously in living in peace with everybody, as much as possible. As a result, we never were part of the fundamentalist-modernist controversy and fundamentalism in Lutheranism is a recent development.

    We believe the only certain place that the Holy Spirit has been promised to work, is through the Word and Sacraments. We are not anti-charismatic per se, it's just not what we emphasize. There are a minority of Lutherans that practice a more charismatic type worship experience, however, but many left for other churches a long time ago. I certainly have had spiritual experiences like that in a Lutheran church, though I am hesitant to speak of "baptism" in that manner because it really is alien to our traditional theology.

    We believe babies receive the Holy Spirit through baptism and sometimes we use chrism oil as a sacramental sign.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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