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Predestination is not the issue, regeneration is

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Skala, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    What do you mean by

    1) sanctification in context of individual calling

    being different from

    2) sanctification in moral progress or individual holiness.

    I offered my explanation for what I thought it could mean , I just wanted to hear what you meant by it.
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When we live out our lives loving our neighbor within the context of our family life, our jobs and careers, our social institutions we belong to, we are proclaiming the Reign of God in our hearts, and our lives therefore become sacramental, we become "little Christs". We Lutherans have a sacramental faith, much as Catholics and Orthodox do, we just apply some of the same monastic ideals to ordinary secular life, so that ordinary life should be approached with the same sense of devotion.

    Ordinary life is spiritual. Washing the dishes is spiritual. Vacuuming the carpet is spiritual. Being kind to a neighbor is spiritual. Yet these are not special religious acts of piety, they are not even specifically Christian, and yet they are made holy through our baptism into Christ. We are not used to thinking this way, but this is only because we do not understand our lives as holy in Christ, we think we must find some special way or technique to be holy, and this is untrue. We do this naturally, it does not required the kind of anxiety necessarily that the typical evangelical associates with piety, where our anxiety fuels our works. This is why some have called Lutherans "lazy", in fact. But it's a misunderstanding of what we judge to be true good works and the universal call to holiness in every life situation, no matter how dirty or lowly or morally ambiguous.

    It's like what King said, if you have to be even a street sweeper, be the best street sweeper you can be. It's not quite that dry, but that's more what Lutherans are talking about. It's not about dedicating your business to God and having special rules about who you serve. The Kingdom is not present through religious piety, it's present in the quiet ways that people love each other and take care of each other and fulfill their social obligations to one another.

    I think somebody like Mr. Rogers might be a good example. He was an ordained minister, and a bit more Presbyterian in his motivations: he wanted to reform TV initially because he disliked violent slapstick on children's TV. But the way he shared the love of God with people, was not even specifically religious, even though he was an ordained minister, he did not feel the need to make God a member of the show, because he knew that God was already there. That is what we Lutherans are talking about. It is hidden holiness.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  3. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    Yes everyday life is where progressively we come to be more obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit as His way works itself into our being as we yield to what has been revealed. That's what I see as 2) sanctification in moral progress or individual holiness. His progression of the good work began.
    The other part that I don't think you answered is 1) sanctification in context of individual calling.
    That I referred to as the power that comes upon us specifically for His work to be accomplished thru His people. The power that brings new life to others. For instance the same sermon can be preached but it's God that causes the receiving.
    The first is growth in the individual while the other is growth in the Body of Christ.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I decided to dig up this old LCA movie from Youtube. It's actually a pitch for Lutheran colleges to parents, but it does deal with the theme of calling, and discerning ones vocation. It's actually a surprisingly good film as far as Christian movies go from that period (many were just terrible, wooden piety), and isn't too long.



    In the modern world, I think the theology of calling and vocation is one area that Lutherans haven't dealt enough with, especially the changes brought by post-industrial society. I think the future of our church will be trying to connect us with more of a sense of community, spirituality, and connection, to make up for the fact many of us no longer work very pleasant, stable, or satisfying jobs that produce an inherent sense of connection- we are alienated from the goods and services we produce more and more, and many of us no longer have full-time employment that will last a lifetime.

    The kind of stuff Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber does, where she tries to reconnect with old Christian traditions, such as having real feast days again in honor of saints (and not just mentioning them in passing in the prayers), or making icons. To build people up so they can endure the sterility of the modern world, and create even a sense of re-enchantment about things, something we have lost. This is what Bonhoeffer said when he meant that Christians must reconnect with the "arcane disciplines" of being a Christian, of prayer and our common life together.
     
  5. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    It may be a "type" of regeneration, the concept, sure, but when most people are discussing this, they are referring to Regeneration proper, the actual doctrine of the new birth.

    That's certainly what I meant by the word in this thread, as it helps my puny brain categorize things.
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Christ is the only one who has been regenerated, so how does studying regeneration help with the study of Predestination?
     
  7. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Calvin seems to have gone beyond that at times:

    “Solomon teaches us the same thing,—that not only the destruction of the wicked is foreknown, but that the wicked themselves have been created for this very end—that they may perish." [Commentary on Rom 9:18]

    There's a similar passage in the Institutes, but I haven't taken time to find it.
     
  8. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    No one is fully regenerated until the body is redeemed. That's the living hope of 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 1:23
     
  9. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    Omgosh :yawn: I watched that movie and the only one with a changed heart was the Indian student, the other students may have had a changed mind and attitude but no heart for Him that I could see. But nevertheless, no that isn't what I was meant. Here's a bit more of what I was referring to.

    THE BARN
     
  10. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't understand how you don't think that student's heart was changed, it obviously was. He went from being exploitative and self-centered, to insisting that his uncle have ethical business practices, or he would not work for him. He had a sense of vocation or calling. Just because he doesn't put on pious affectations doesn't mean that he was not changed.

    We don't insist that a person must display pious feelings or affectations for Jesus, though it can be appropriate. In fact for us, hollow piety that costs us little personally, is suspect. We insist a person believes that they are a sinner and that Christ died for them, and for his sake, God forgives all their sins. How they feel about it is really something we cannot judge as human beings. People react to belief in different ways emotionally. It would be a tragedy to presume to judge someone with a sincere but quiet faith as lacking in faith.
     
  11. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    A quite faith doesn't mean one is lacking but it just seemed head knowledge rather than heart knowledge to me. :sorry:
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We don't tend to separate the head and the heart so much, and prize one over the other. Some people are intellectual, some people are sentimental, and some people are action oriented, but those are personality styles and different intellectual capacities that don't have much to do with whether we are justified by God. The student that confronted his uncle was just an extraverted, action-oriented type of person.
     
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    Knowledge of good and evil vs wisdom of the life-giving spirit is the difference between the students that I thought was a difference. Paul in the film had every motive but love of the Lord for his conformity to what was being taught. The student from India's reasoning was gratitude to the Lord. Which one do you think was justified? Note that is just justified. Not even at the point where this thread starts, or that which the thread is about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I agree but would say that regeneration is the resurrection. I don't think there is a partial regeneration prior to that, if that is what you're suggesting with the word, fully.
     
  15. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    What does regenerated mean to you?
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    As it pertains to people, resurrection. That's how Jesus used it.

    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28 KJV)
     
  17. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    1 Peter 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    1 Peter 1:23
    Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.
     
  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    To my knowledge these are the only uses of the term in the NT. Mat 19:28 and Titus 3:5 is a related word that is commonly translated renewal. In 1 Peter it refers to our rebirth through Jesus' resurrection. It's thus the same as being born from above in John 3:5. I'd say it's close to Reformed usage, though without the specific Reformed ordo salutis.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, Peter uses the word figuratively of their, those Jewish believers, having entered into a second covenant with God. Obviously they weren't literally born again. However, if you look through the Scriptures you'll find that the phrase "born again" is only ever used of Jewish Christians. Jesus coined the term in His talk with Nicodemus. It stems from the promises made to Abraham. The Jews who were the seed of Abraham believed that they inherited the promises through their birth. They believed that being born as the seed of Abraham automatically entitled to the inheritance. Jesus corrected Nicodemus' misunderstanding by indicating that his birth as the seed of Abraham was not sufficient to gain him access to the inheritance. Jesus tells him, metaphorically, you must born gain. In other words, Nicodemus' birth as the seed of Abraham wasn't enough. The apostle Paul confirms this in his letter to the Galatians.

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Gal. 3:14-18 KJV)

    Paul points out that when God made the promise to Abraham and his Seed, He meant seed Singular, not plural. The promise was not to all of Abraham's seed, but rather to one individual seed, which is Christ. Nicodemus as the other Jews understood the word "seed" to be plural, Paul corrects this thinking just as Jesus did by telling Nicodemus that he had to be born again. We know it's a figurative because Nicodemus expected to inherit the promises based on his physical birth as the seed of Abraham. Nicodemus understood birth as the mechanism for inheriting the promises.

    A search of the Scriptures will show that the phrase born again is not used of any Gentiles but only Jewish Christians.
     
  20. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ pondering the things of God Supporter

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    Galations 4 points to Abraham as the father of faith but those of the promise are born of grace also which is thru Sarah and not thru Hagar law. Those who are born of the promise have a spiritual inheritance not associated with Judaism.
     
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