Predestination is based on Free Will

[John tower]

Can I chime in here?

I don't believe anyone believes it doesn't matter what you do as a believer, you will go to heaven anyway..I've certainly never heard that posited anywhere except for (perhaps) from the magic sentence crowd..

The result of believing that some people will go to heaven and some people will not (which is true) and the 'who will' is within the foreknowledge of God, is that you dont know who will someday be your brother and sister in Christ, so you end up treating everyone as if they may be or may become so.

You also don't know if it will be you to lead them to Christ, or if Christ will use you in some way, so you hope God will use you in their life.. if even in a small way.

You do feel less like you have to force people, or get pushy with them, it becomes feeling more like a relaxed conversation among family, than a "oh no they're gonna go to hell if I don't convince them now!" feeling..

I find someone needing time, or space, far less threatening - but I really really trust that God brings His own to HIM in some way.. that doesn't make me apathetic, just confident.

Eph 1(4), Psalms 65(4), John 6(44), Heb 12(2) : God absolutely brings his own to him : and of all that the father gives to Christ he loses nothing

 

[John tower]

I've heard that argument before about foreknowledge implying determinism. I just don't buy it. I think the argument is non sequitor. If foreknowledge implies determinism, then that logically means that the one who has foreknowledge is forcing the determinism. If I watch a movie that I had seen before, I have foreknowledge of the events to take place in the movie. Does that mean that I cause those events to take place. Obviously not.

Foreknowledge is solely based on predestination : the very hairs of your head are even mumbered : eph 1(4)

 

[John tower]

fortunately it's unimportant for you and me what we understand or don't understand of these mysteries. In reality God's thoughts are truly above our full comprehension. (The wonderful Isaiah chapter 55)

Prov 3(5&7), now we know in part 1 Cor 13

 

[brocke]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

Sorry but your argument is flawed. It is circular. God knew what your choices would be...therefore God predestined you would become what you chose to be.

This is actually circular because from it one could say: I chose to be A; therefore God decided (predestined I'd be A) They lead back into each other. And I'm not explaining it well.

I submit you are not presenting a predestination argument but one more conducive to Middle Knowledge with Free-Will. This in its simplest way could be described as God in his foreknowledge was able to foresee all possible outcomes of any event. Therefore God chose the action to take that would produce the most favorable events.

 

[Loren T.]

If:
God is outside of time, "foreknowledge" means what?
I get a kick out of the Calvinists saying God can't know unless he predestines. That's a very weak view of God's omniscience. God being omniscient means he knows all possibilities in all possible futures before deciding anything.
Let me toss this into the mix: Perhaps the whole predestine bit is actually looking backwards, not forwards. Let me explain: God knew people in times past, such as Abraham, in other words they were God's chosen friends. He knew them and chose to let them be part of his plan. The whole reason Paul keeps saying this is to show us that God keeps his promises. It's not a predetermined blueprint at all, it's saying in essence "See how God brings to completion the plans he had in others lives in the past, in spite of themselves and their sins and problems? He will do the same for you, if you trust him."

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Doveaman,



[Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:]

You are using a wrong understanding of foreknowledge. God foreknows the persons


["For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)]

The people...WHOM.....NOT THEIR ACTIONS! It does not say, for what God knew about them, it does not say for what God knew about them.



[God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.]

This ungodly notion has no biblical support. A perfect God knows because He has determined what will happen.


{God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.}
No...man is not sovereign God is.
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

[Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.]

God has not asked you to rewrite scripture. He demands that we believe what is already written.

[God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.]

Nonsense.

[The same is true of all mankind:}
no...read the potters freedom by Dr,White.
"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

 

[Jipsah]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices

So you're agreeing that He foreknew, but denying that He predestined. The Scripture says both, doesn't it? "Foreknow" and "predestine" aren't synonyms, they don't mean the same thing. This is simply an attempt to nullify a Scripture that doesn't agree with your doctrine.

 

[Jipsah]

In reality God's thoughts are not totally above our full comprehension.

I'm told that a junebug once said the same thing about Einstein.

 

[Jipsah]

I get a kick out of the Calvinists saying God can't know unless he predestines.

I don't think anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, ever said any such thing.

Let me toss this into the mix: Perhaps the whole predestine bit is actually looking backwards, not forwards.

The it would be "postdestine" and not "predestine", then, wouldn't it?

The whole reason Paul keeps saying this is to show us that God keeps his promises. It's not a predetermined blueprint at all, it's saying in essence "See how God brings to completion the plans he had in others lives in the past, in spite of themselves and their sins and problems? He will do the same for you, if you trust him."

So when Paul said "predestine", what he really meant was something else altogether. Well, that is the ancient and accepted way of making the Scripture conform to one's doctrine, isn't it?

 

[SarahsKnight]

'I have this infinite treasure, and some of you other people are not chosen and can't get it', which seems to be the opposite of the great commission

That's because it is.

 

[bcbsr]

Foreknowledge is solely based on predestination : the very hairs of your head are even mumbered : eph 1(4)

My hairs don't make my decisions

 

[Bible2+]

Doveaman said in post #1:

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

Actually, election is not based on our actions (Romans 9:11).

That's why election to initial salvation is not based on our works (2 Timothy 1:9).

So predestination is not based on free will in the sense of it being based on our free willed actions.

But, at the same time, predestination does not negate our free will (as is sometimes claimed), just as God's omniscience does not.

God is definitely omniscient, for in Him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and His foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But His omniscience coexists with His giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will, and yet God can already know what they are going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the whole hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all of the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything that anyone had heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all of the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) to just stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day to not play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day which sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It is your own fault that you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, He could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all of the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all of the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all of the different possibilities for all of his subsequent choices, and then through all of the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give Him the best opportunity to eternally show both His mercy and His holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (that is, outside of how humans happen to experience time), there is no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all of the frames of a movie, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film (or in one data file), and yet we humans happen to experience a movie only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray that God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.

 

[Bible2+]

Doveaman said in post #1:

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

It's also stronger than that, in that God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect people in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

 

[Bible2+]

bcbsr said in post #4:

"Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

But our faith initially is not by our free will (John 1:13).

And the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

 

[Loren T.]

I don't think anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, ever said any such thing.

The it would be "postdestine" and not "predestine", then, wouldn't it?

So when Paul said "predestine", what he really meant was something else altogether. Well, that is the ancient and accepted way of making the Scripture conform to one's doctrine, isn't it?

I didn't make this up, I just expressed it poorly. I will try to find the source from the greek and post it.

 

[Loren T.]

I don't think anyone, Calvinist or otherwise, ever said any such thing

"Foreknowledge is solely based on predestination : the very hairs of your head are even mumbered : eph 1(4)"
If foreknowledge is based on predestination, then did not God's decree come before his knowledge? And yes, I've been told this multiple times by Calvinists, that God can't know without decreeing.

 

[Dave L]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

Even if predestination was based on free will, what would God see other than a bunch of miserable sinners who could not save themselves?

 

[Loren T.]

Ok, so The Greek words translated "foreknow" and "foreknowledge" are the verb proginosko and the noun prognosis. The verb has the basic meaning of "to know beforehand", "to know in advance", and the noun simply means "foreknowledge" [Cf. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Notice this is all past tense: He predestined, he called, he justified, he glorified.

προορισας verb - aorist active participle - nominative singular masculine
proorizo pro-or-id'-zo: to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine -- determine before, ordain, predestinate.

So, in simple english, God chooses to work everything for the good for those he chose for a purpose. And who is Paul talking talking about here? Foreknowledge means those he knew before. Who did God know before? Well, those he chose for certain purposes such as Moses and Abraham and the prophets. So, Paul is using them as an example to show us, that God carries through on his promises to them. Instead of reading this as some kind of fatalistic determinism, it's simply : "Look what God does with the people who he chose for certain purposes! He never failed to bring them through. Now, if we read the stories of these people, we know that they all made some bad choices at times. But, Paul is trying to encourage us that God will not forsake us regardless. And this is illustrated by the verses that follow:

31 "What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul isn't telling us that God randomly picks some to be saved and some to be damned. He isn't selling some sort of fate. He is simply saying that when you join Christ's family, God is working for you and you are secure in him. You can know that God decided in advance to go with those who joined his family and not give up on them. It has nothing to do with the removal of free choices.

 

[Halbhh]

Prov 3(5&7), now we know in part 1 Cor 13

We've been studying Proverbs in our Saturday bible group, and this passage 3:5-8 is such wonderful advice. See, the only source for truth I know is always true every time, that I can always rely on, isn't a pastor or bishop, priest or philosopher or anyone other than God's Word. Also that invaluable chapter 1 Cor 13, so sweet, and so beneficial to any to read again and again.

 

[Petros2015]

Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future.

Hmmm.