Predestination is based on Free Will

[Doveaman]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew the free choices that Jeremiah would make, and God predetermined what Jeremiah would become (a prophet) based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

 

[Halbhh]

fortunately it's unimportant for you and me what we understand or don't understand of these mysteries. In reality God's thoughts are truly above our full comprehension. (The wonderful Isaiah chapter 55)

 

[Doveaman]

fortunately it's unimportant for you and me what we understand or don't understand of these mysteries.

Unfortunately it's unimportant for you what you understand or don't understand of these mysteries.

In reality God's thoughts are truly above our full comprehension.

In reality God's thoughts are not totally above our full comprehension.

 

[bcbsr]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

 

[Halbhh]

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

A friendly question. While I think it's unimportant for a believer whether they have some esoteric knowledge (correct or incorrect either way) of this kind, there is a concern that keeps coming up to me when I see these threads on the internet -- if a person thinks they are under irresistible grace, going to be saved no matter what they do in the end, then one or the other of 2 problems that are very serious seem to occur. Either (the less likely perhaps) -- they may feel since they are saved inevitably, then they can at times do sins and not even need to confess and repent. Or the perhaps more likely problem -- they may think since they think there is irresistible grace and if they indeed to realize they still have to confess and repent (and that demonstrates they are truly chosen), then in spite of this alignment they are still committing an offense to discuss the subject publically in that isn't it just like saying to other random people listening/reading, some of whom aren't yet come to Christ, 'I have this infinite treasure, and some of you other people are not chosen and can't get it', which seems to be the opposite of the great commission.

 

[Tree of Life]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

Capital Hogwarsh. The Scriptures you've quoted don't say anything of the sort. You're adding words and concepts to these passages to make them fit your doctrine, but it's not what the texts themselves are saying.

Foreknew in Romans 8:29 is not talking about God's knowledge of our actions. Rather it's talking about his sovereign choice of intimate love. When it says that Adam knew his wife, for example, it's talking about his intimate relationship with her.

God is saying that before the elect were born, he chose them for an intimate relationship. This is based on his free love and not on their foreseen actions or responses.

 

[Tree of Life]

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

It only seems obvious to you because you have an unbiblical assumption. Our assumptions always seem obvious to us. But if you're willing to set aside your assumption, you might be surprised to discover that this is not what the Bible is saying.

 

[bcbsr]

A friendly question. While I think it's unimportant for a believer whether they have some esoteric knowledge (correct or incorrect either way) of this kind, there is a concern that keeps coming up to me when I see these threads on the internet -- if a person thinks they are under irresistible grace, going to be saved no matter what they do in the end, then one or the other of 2 problems that are very serious seem to occur. Either (the less likely perhaps) -- they may feel since they are saved inevitably, then they can at times do sins and not even need to confess and repent. Or the perhaps more likely problem -- they may think since they think there is irresistible grace and if they indeed to realize they still have to confess and repent (and that demonstrates they are truly chosen), then in spite of this alignment they are still committing an offense to discuss the subject publically in that isn't it just like saying to other random people listening/reading, some of whom aren't yet come to Christ, 'I have this infinite treasure, and some of you other people are not chosen and can't get it', which seems to be the opposite of the great commission.

As for the first, under the New Covenant the incentive to not sin is not fear of condemnation. Rather that was the motivation under the Law, apparently the only motivation which salvation by works Christians think will control behavior. It didn't work under the law of Moses. It doesn't work today. Rather what God has done under the New Covenant was to introduce regeneration such that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 What is the incentive? The New Nature. It's natural for those born of God to behave as children of God due to regeneration. A while there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.", there are positive incentives for rewards over and above being saved.

As for the second issue, I think you're referring to a Calvinist view of Predestination which neither I nor the OP support. Salvation is contingent upon faith, and the rhetoric of the New Testament's presentation of the gospel implies free will. So it's no fatalistic.

 

[Halbhh]

As for the first, under the New Covenant the incentive to not sin is not fear of condemnation. Rather that was the motivation under the Law, apparently the only motivation which salvation by works Christians think will control behavior. It didn't work under the law of Moses. It doesn't work today. Rather what God has done under the New Covenant was to introduce regeneration such that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 What is the incentive? The New Nature. It's natural for those born of God to behave as children of God due to regeneration. A while there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.", there are positive incentives for rewards over and above being saved.

As for the second issue, I think you're referring to a Calvinist view of Predestination which neither I nor the OP support. Salvation is contingent upon faith, and the rhetoric of the New Testament's presentation of the gospel implies free will. So it's no fatalistic.

Funny we may agree entirely on this about the law and sin (perhaps we agree on most every bit even, who knows? since your post did not have any clear error, and has excellent points I already know are correct and in scripture, I clicked 'agree'), but we may still end up arguing past each other, and perhaps will, because we both are concerned that we not take a risk about letting something crucially essential be missed by the other. (that's the norm here)

Just from that caution, let me add what you may already fully have added yourself (but just in case) -- We trust Christ Jesus's words on any question, yes? He said about whether to fear --

4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."


He said, "Yes, I tell you, fear him."

This wonderful passage tells us we need fear nothing in this world and no men, even that we have ultimate protection here (in the way that truly matters; not from suffering, but in the ultimate ways instead) !

But also that we do definitely need to fear God, that is unrepentant sin and His Justice for such, for our wrongdoing (if we continue unrepentant in sin -- as you already pointed to, as in the epistle of 1 John (in full); remembering wonderfully as in 1 John we are cleansed and restored if we confess our sins.) I take it you do think chapter 1 of 1 John is valid, of course, but sometimes people haven't recently read through and may not remember.

 

[Halbhh]

Salvation is contingent upon faith, and the rhetoric of the New Testament's presentation of the gospel implies free will.

About our (non essential, non crucial) views on about how predestination works in relation to free will (which I take to mean agency, an ability to choose and act, however imperfectly), there are other formulations that make more sense and fit more scriptures as I understand. See the problem is that if God foreknows every (notice this word is 'every'; not 'many' or 'crucial' or other reasonable views, but here 'every') action, choice we will do ahead of time, then those choices being already known therefore are...fact. Already fixed. Determined. Then any 'free will' is but an illusion in a key way. More notable though: Why are there any commands from Christ like "love one another" if it's already fact whether you will or won't, so in effect it's as if you need not even bother whether to hear Him say it nor take it to heart, since it's already fact what you'll actually do. That kind of full determinism (on every thing, instead of for instance some things) makes us just like robots. But another view fits more scriptures and makes us not robots -- one in which God truly knows us and also can see exactly where the direction we are currently going leads to, with total understanding, and through the Spirit we can be pulled to change direction (to save us!!, or if we always refuse then we'd be lost). But regardless of if He made us truly unpredictable in this way (able to truly choose to respond to or reject the pull of the spirit), still He would be able to accomplish all His plans of course, regardless of what we do. This fits election/predestination being through Christ, as explained fairly well here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election#Summary_of_the_corporate_view_of_election (though of course this very issue is a main theological question; it's simply a reasonably good summary that is useful to lay out the view I think fits more scripture better).

 

[bcbsr]

Funny we may agree entirely on this about the law and sin (perhaps we agree on most every bit even, who knows? since your post did not have any clear error, and has excellent points I already know are correct and in scripture, I clicked 'agree'), but we may still end up arguing past each other, and perhaps will, because we both are concerned that we not take a risk about letting something crucially essential be missed by the other. (that's the norm here)

Just from that caution, let me add what you may already fully have added yourself (but just in case) -- We trust Christ Jesus's words on any question, yes? He said about whether to fear --

4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."


He said, "Yes, I tell you, fear him."

This wonderful passage tells us we need fear nothing in this world and no men, even that we have ultimate protection here (in the way that truly matters; not from suffering, but in the ultimate ways instead) !

But also that we do definitely need to fear God, that is unrepentant sin and His Justice for such, for our wrongdoing (if we continue unrepentant in sin -- as you already pointed to, as in the epistle of 1 John (in full); remembering wonderfully as in 1 John we are cleansed and restored if we confess our sins.) I take it you do think chapter 1 of 1 John is valid, of course, but sometimes people haven't recently read through and may not remember.

The way I view his teaching in the sermon on the mount and many other things, when he answers the lawyer and the rich man who ask him about getting eternal life, is that he's speaking to people who are seekers. He speaks to them of the law. And what does Paul say is the purpose of the law.

"through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20b

"the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25

The point of the law is to bring fear of God's judgement in light of His standards and our depraved nature. Thus Paul described the law as a curse, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" Gal 3:10 Likewise the first two and a half chapters of Romans brings up this point - namely that all are condemned based on their behavior. Which invokes fear. That fear drives one to seek grace, which is readily available under the gospel of grace, which Paul immediately goes on to present in Rom 3:21+.

The point is, fear is for those who have yet to come to the faith. Those who are in the faith are no longer on the straight and narrow path. We've ended our journey. We've crossed into the promise land. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. And Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 If Jesus say I will not be condemned, then what do I have to be afraid of? Am I afraid that God would break his promise? That's not going to happen. Consider the end of Romans 8

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Including "the future" pretty much affirms the doctrine of eternal security, as well it deals with those who claim that we can cause ourselves to lose our salvation by saying, "nor anything else in all creation", since we are created, we cannot separate ourselves.

John says, "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1John 4:18 The way I read this I don't think it's referring to our love, but rather our acceptance and revelation of God's love for us. ("perfect", by the way could also be translated "complete" from the Greek) We we completely accept God's love for us according to the gospel (or even John 3:16), that drives out our fear of going to hell, because we know it won't happened, having trust the promise of God. In fact the one who fears going to hell indicates that they have not completely accepted God's love for them - that is, they haven't completely accepted the gospel. We I hear people worry about their salvation status, I can sense a lack of trust, a lack of faith. Yet believing, trusting God is the requirement to be saved. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4

 

[bcbsr]

About our (non essential, non crucial) views on about how predestination works in relation to free will (which I take to mean agency, an ability to choose and act, however imperfectly), there are other formulations that make more sense and fit more scriptures as I understand. See the problem is that if God foreknows every (notice this word is 'every'; not 'many' or 'crucial' or other reasonable views, but here 'every') action, choice we will do ahead of time, then those choices being already known therefore are...fact. Already fixed. Determined. Then any 'free will' is but an illusion in a key way. More notable though: Why are there any commands from Christ like "love one another" if it's already fact whether you will or won't, so in effect it's as if you need not even bother whether to hear Him say it nor take it to heart, since it's already fact what you'll actually do. That kind of full determinism (on every thing, instead of for instance some things) makes us just like robots. But another view fits more scriptures and makes us not robots -- one in which God truly knows us and also can see exactly where the direction we are currently going leads to, with total understanding, and through the Spirit we can be pulled to change direction (to save us!!, or if we always refuse then we'd be lost). But regardless of if He made us truly unpredictable in this way (able to truly choose to respond to or reject the pull of the spirit), still He would be able to accomplish all His plans of course, regardless of what we do. This fits election/predestination being through Christ, as explained fairly well here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_election#Summary_of_the_corporate_view_of_election (though of course this very issue is a main theological question; it's simply a reasonably good summary that is useful to lay out the view I think fits more scripture better).

I've heard that argument before about foreknowledge implying determinism. I just don't buy it. I think the argument is non sequitor. If foreknowledge implies determinism, then that logically means that the one who has foreknowledge is forcing the determinism. If I watch a movie that I had seen before, I have foreknowledge of the events to take place in the movie. Does that mean that I cause those events to take place. Obviously not.

 

[Halbhh]

The way I view his teaching in the sermon on the mount and many other things, when he answers the lawyer and the rich man who ask him about getting eternal life, is that he's speaking to people who are seekers. He speaks to them of the law. And what does Paul say is the purpose of the law.

"through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20b

"the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25

The point of the law is to bring fear of God's judgement in light of His standards and our depraved nature. Thus Paul described the law as a curse, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" Gal 3:10 Likewise the first two and a half chapters of Romans brings up this point - namely that all are condemned based on their behavior. Which invokes fear. That fear drives one to seek grace, which is readily available under the gospel of grace, which Paul immediately goes on to present in Rom 3:21+.

The point is, fear is for those who have yet to come to the faith. Those who are in the faith are no longer on the straight and narrow path. We've ended our journey. We've crossed into the promise land. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. And Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 If Jesus say I will not be condemned, then what do I have to be afraid of? Am I afraid that God would break his promise? That's not going to happen. Consider the end of Romans 8

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Including "the future" pretty much affirms the doctrine of eternal security, as well it deals with those who claim that we can cause ourselves to lose our salvation by saying, "nor anything else in all creation", since we are created, we cannot separate ourselves.

John says, "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1John 4:18 The way I read this I don't think it's referring to our love, but rather our acceptance and revelation of God's love for us. ("perfect", by the way could also be translated "complete" from the Greek) We we completely accept God's love for us according to the gospel (or even John 3:16), that drives out our fear of going to hell, because we know it won't happened, having trust the promise of God. In fact the one who fears going to hell indicates that they have not completely accepted God's love for them - that is, they haven't completely accepted the gospel. We I hear people worry about their salvation status, I can sense a lack of trust, a lack of faith. Yet believing, trusting God is the requirement to be saved. "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4

Well said, and I could see quickly you have it all correct (didn't need to look up any for context, having recently carefully read those entire epistles again), in what you say, though some important issues remain unaddressed (and I didn't expect you to summarize the whole of every aspect; it was a good job to say what you have). See, a believer can sin after being truly saved in Christ. Peter did.

Peter sinned after having the Spirit, after performing major miracles.

Peter sinned significantly when he refused for a time to eat with the uncircumsized (though later resolved) (Galatians chapter 2, Acts). Would we think Peter condemned then, for having done significant sin after being truly saved already? Well, we can expect more Grace and Mercy than that! As John wrote (and I feel we truly need all the words of several verses here) --

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Now we can see why Paul chose the dramatic wording in Galatians 2 that Peter (Cephas) stood condemned (no less!).

He was condemned until he confessed/repented.


(sometimes people ask about 1 John because it seems as if John contradicts himself about us not sinning, yet also anyone saying they don't sin is lying. No, he's saying much what you have but more fully, that truly being in Christ and remaining in Christ won't allow us to sin, yet nevertheless when we do (when we stumble, falter, fail), then we can confess, and the Amazing Grace! and Mercy! is that we are cleansed and restored! Hallelujah!

So, confession -- it's not really optional, and it's not a once and done either.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In reality God's thoughts are not totally above our full comprehension.

Really ?

really ? ? ?

As high as heaven is above the earth ..... .......


REALLY ? ? ?

 

[Halbhh]

I've heard that argument before about foreknowledge implying determinism. I just don't buy it. I think the argument is non sequitor. If foreknowledge implies determinism, then that logically means that the one who has foreknowledge is forcing the determinism. If I watch a movie that I had seen before, I have foreknowledge of the events to take place in the movie. Does that mean that I cause those events to take place. Obviously not.

I hope you feel this isn't important to resolve, as I feel. I am very comfortable knowing God's mind is truly above our ability to totally encompass and pin down fully (Isaiah chapter 55). So I expect to not know every aspect of how every esoteric thing works. Instead we are given an ability to know the crucial things of salvation itself, which allows us to follow Christ and be saved. Hallelujah!

So, to me, this is really just academic, but I do sometimes worry for those not yet having come to Christ about whether they hear some double predestination viewpoint (as suggested in the OP bolding of "prepared for destruction? "), and then this pre-damned idea blocks them from belief even (as various passages in the NT suggest is possible, for some to be blocked by the wrongs visible from believers).

As so many people, millions and millions, will consider it -- if God really does know already the precise future in every way (instead of certain key things), then those future events are truly fixed, and truly unalterable, and totally determined. It's all the way to the classic old idea of the 'clockwork Universe' writ large, even onto spirit/soul also. In contrast if an outcome can be altered (either by us or by Him), that means He hadn't yet chosen or pre-seen, and that outcome was not fixed, and therefore was not known ahead of time.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I hold to that opinion as well. "Predestined" and "Chosen" are terms almost exclusively applied to those who are already believers. So it's relative to a person's faith. And you have 1Peter 1:2a "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God". God's foreknowledge of what? To me it seems obviously be referring to God's foreknowledge of our faith.

That is how I see it, pretty much. If He already knows ahead of time how we will choose because of His omniscience, then, that doesn't mean that He made us literal puppets. This foreknowledge just does not equal the seemingly hyper-Calvinistic view of predestination, where it's like no one has a choice at all, that if God loves someone He will literally make them get saved no matter what, and yet He will hate others and actively stop them from ever listening and responding positively to the Good News.

 

[bcbsr]

Well said, and I could see quickly you have it all correct (didn't need to look up any for context, having recently carefully read those entire epistles again), in what you say, though some important issues remain unaddressed (and I didn't expect you to summarize the whole of every aspect; it was a good job to say what you have). See, a believer can sin after being truly saved in Christ. Peter did.

Peter sinned after having the Spirit, after performing major miracles.

Peter sinned significantly when he refused for a time to eat with the uncircumsized (though later resolved) (Galatians chapter 2, Acts). Would we think Peter condemned then, for having done significant sin after being truly saved already? Well, we can expect more Grace and Mercy than that! As John wrote (and I feel we truly need all the words of several verses here) --

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Now we can see why Paul chose the dramatic wording in Galatians 2 that Peter (Cephas) stood condemned (no less!).

He was condemned until he confessed/repented.


(sometimes people ask about 1 John because it seems as if John contradicts himself about us not sinning, yet also anyone saying they don't sin is lying. No, he's saying much what you have but more fully, that truly being in Christ and remaining in Christ won't allow us to sin, yet nevertheless when we do (when we stumble, falter, fail), then we can confess, and the Amazing Grace! and Mercy! is that we are cleansed and restored! Hallelujah!

So, confession -- it's not really optional, and it's not a once and done either.

I've done an extensive study of 1John that speaks to the apparently contradiction. The main point being John utilizing a nuance in Greek grammar concerning tenses. Present tense in the Greek has a strong sense of continuity and may be likened to taking a video and often references lifestyle. Aorist tense, which we don't have in English, is the snapshot tense speaking of events.

With that in mind and adjusting for the resultant interpretation for all the verses there is no apparently contradiction. In my study guides provided in the link above I also provide a literalized translations that reigns in the nuances.

 

[John tower]

Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of our free choices, and not the other way around:

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" -- (Rom 8:29)

God knows beforehand what we will freely choose in the future (foreknew), and He determines beforehand our destiny (predestined) based on those free choices.

God's foreknowledge of our future choices is what predetermines our destiny.

"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" -- (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Before Jeremiah was conceived in the womb God predestined him to be a prophet based on God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah's future choices.

God foreknew what Jeremiah would freely choose and predetermined what Jeremiah would become based on those free choices.

The same is true of all mankind:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath — prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory" -- (Rom 9:21-23)

The vessel for dishonor that is prepared for destruction are those whom God foreknew would make wrong choices.

The vessel for honor that is prepared for glory are those whom God foreknew would make right choices.

"For those whom God foreknew He also predestined" -- (Rom 8:29)

You have it exactly backwards : he foreknows because he predestined !! TRUE FREE WILL CANNOT BE FOREKNOWN OR IT ISN'T REALLY FREE WILL !!

 

[Hazelelponi]

A friendly question. While I think it's unimportant for a believer whether they have some esoteric knowledge (correct or incorrect either way) of this kind, there is a concern that keeps coming up to me when I see these threads on the internet -- if a person thinks they are under irresistible grace, going to be saved no matter what they do in the end, then one or the other of 2 problems that are very serious seem to occur. Either (the less likely perhaps) -- they may feel since they are saved inevitably, then they can at times do sins and not even need to confess and repent. Or the perhaps more likely problem -- they may think since they think there is irresistible grace and if they indeed to realize they still have to confess and repent (and that demonstrates they are truly chosen), then in spite of this alignment they are still committing an offense to discuss the subject publically in that isn't it just like saying to other random people listening/reading, some of whom aren't yet come to Christ, 'I have this infinite treasure, and some of you other people are not chosen and can't get it', which seems to be the opposite of the great commission.

Can I chime in here?

I don't believe anyone believes it doesn't matter what you do as a believer, you will go to heaven anyway..I've certainly never heard that posited anywhere except for (perhaps) from the magic sentence crowd..

The result of believing that some people will go to heaven and some people will not (which is true) and the 'who will' is within the foreknowledge of God, is that you dont know who will someday be your brother and sister in Christ, so you end up treating everyone as if they may be or may become so.

You also don't know if it will be you to lead them to Christ, or if Christ will use you in some way, so you hope God will use you in their life.. if even in a small way.

You do feel less like you have to force people, or get pushy with them, it becomes feeling more like a relaxed conversation among family, than a "oh no they're gonna go to hell if I don't convince them now!" feeling..

I find someone needing time, or space, far less threatening - but I really really trust that God brings His own to HIM in some way.. that doesn't make me apathetic, just confident.

 

[John tower]

That is how I see it, pretty much. If He already knows ahead of time how we will choose because of His omniscience, then, that doesn't mean that He made us literal puppets. This foreknowledge just does not equal the seemingly hyper-Calvinistic view of predestination, where it's like no one has a choice at all, that if God loves someone He will literally make them get saved no matter what, and yet He will hate others and actively stop them from ever listening and responding positively to the Good News.

True Arminiests : always giving credit to man instead of God : why do you have such a problem giving all the credit to God : Why do you feel you must give something to man : It's just not true : It is all God : Eph 1(11), Col 1(17), Heb 12(2), Rom 13(1)