Predestination/"Free Will"

[rnmomof7]

Today at 03:41 PM frumanchu said this in Post #320



A good question. Regeneration refers to the changing of man's heart. The will is governed by desire, and man's heart desires to supress God and reject His sovereignty over his life and the universe. As long as a man's heart is thus, he will never seek God. He will never put his faith or trust in Christ. He will never choose because he doesn't want to. Doesn't matter what the situation, he will not choose God. Regeneration occurs when God changes that condition. He removes the effect of sin, replacing the desire to reject God with the desire to accept Him. His will then responds accordingly. Thus, when presented with the gospel, the regenerate man will respond and accept Christ. The result is faith unto salvation.

If any of my Reformed bretheren see error here, please speak up! I've been trying for awhile now to put such things into plain words and I'm afraid of mistating something in error.

Does this help, bird?

Jesus called it "born again" the heart of flesh is removed and a new heart is given. A heart no longer bound by the sin of the fall..It is free to desire God..

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:35 PM bird said this in Post #317




 

the bible tells us how to know the saved?   you then seem to define "saved" as having come from repentance and confession, yet in other posts you have implied that jesus is the one who saves us.  so which is it?  is it my repentance and confession that saves me?  or is it jesus?   i agree that jesus spoke of signs and how we will know his disciples...."a new command i give you:  love one another.  as i have loved you, so you must love one another.  by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."  (john 13:34-35)

 

bird

 



 

God wants his kids to know their family. He has told us how we can know each other ..

We are save by grace through failth ..But He would not have us ignorant . He does not want us out fellowshipping with the unsaved or cults..

bird how can we love one an other if we do not use discernment to know who the "others" are.

We are not to be unequally yoked ..the light has no fellowship with the darkness..

 

[CCWoody]

Yesterday at 03:45 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #301



"...the master pay for slaves that will never choose him."  What is wrong with this?  Jesus died for all.  Not all will choose Him.  Not all will be saved, not because Christ did not give them the way, but because they did not accept His way.  I do not see the problem in the logic.


You say that scripture indicates that salvation was complete at the cross.  I do not agree.  I agree that in some senses, salvation had been prepared for us, but I think it would be beneficial if you showed how you think scripture indicates that.  If you mean the phrase "it is finished", then you have already indicated that and we disagree.  If it is different scripture, then show it.  One scripture that comes to mind for me is, Phillipians 2:12.  It says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  That does not indicate that their salvation was already in place when Christ died.  At least that is how I can see reasonable to interpret.

I agree, its good to discuss these things, as long as we remember that we are children of God and we aren't to let issues like this get between us.  God bless.

It says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". 

Correct, "Work out your salvation...."
Not, "Work on your salvation...."
Or, "Work for your salvation...."

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S.  Is the only difference between one saved and one lost the grace of God?

 

[Aaron11]

Basically, it seems rather irrelevant in your walk with Christ whether you believe in predestination or not. Either way, you need to put on Christ. If you do, then the calvinist will say that you were chosen before you did that and it was meant to be. The non-calvinist will say that you chose Christ and could have denied Him. Either way choosing Christ is a guarantee of salvation.

 

[Aaron11]

Today at 04:21 PM CCWoody said this in Post #323

P.S.  Is the only difference between one saved and one lost the grace of God?

What do you mean by this?  You will have to further explain the question before I could give you the answer that you want.

 

[bird]

Today at 08:41 PM frumanchu said this in Post #320



A good question. Regeneration refers to the changing of man's heart. The will is governed by desire, and man's heart desires to supress God and reject His sovereignty over his life and the universe. As long as a man's heart is thus, he will never seek God. He will never put his faith or trust in Christ. He will never choose because he doesn't want to. Doesn't matter what the situation, he will not choose God. Regeneration occurs when God changes that condition. He removes the effect of sin, replacing the desire to reject God with the desire to accept Him. His will then responds accordingly. Thus, when presented with the gospel, the regenerate man will respond and accept Christ. The result is faith unto salvation.

If any of my Reformed bretheren see error here, please speak up! I've been trying for awhile now to put such things into plain words and I'm afraid of mistating something in error.

Does this help, bird?

thanks for helping me understand where you are coming from....

ok, i see that you said that regeneration has to do with changing a man's heart, so that he will "want" to choose god when presented with the gospel.   does this mean then that the regenerating takes place in close proximity to the time and place when that man is likely to hear the gospel.  (i'm assuming that a person's heart  is only regenerated once, and having once been regenerated it would not be a good idea for a regenerated man to be walking around without hearing the gospel pretty shortly thereafter....how long of a shelf life does a regenerated but unevangelized heart have?)

 

my next question then is this:  what is the gospel?

 

bird




 

 

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 04:45 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #301


, Phillipians 2:12.  It says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  That does not indicate that their salvation was already in place when Christ died.  At least that is how I can see reasonable to interpret.

I had not thought to respond to this part till I noted CC touch on it.
Bue Aaron you need to read the entire thing.

Phl 2:12__ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

So we work it out as God ordaines

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 04:33 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #325




What do you mean by this?  You will have to further explain the question before I could give you the answer that you want.

It is quite simple really:

Take a sheep and take a goat.  Is the only difference between the two the grace of God or is there something else about them which caused the sheep to be a sheep and the goat lacked so he remained a goat.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 04:26 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #324

Basically, it seems rather irrelevant in your walk with Christ whether you believe in predestination or not. Either way, you need to put on Christ. If you do, then the calvinist will say that you were chosen before you did that and it was meant to be. The non-calvinist will say that you chose Christ and could have denied Him. Either way choosing Christ is a guarantee of salvation.

Is it?:

• I Never Knew You
  "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Didn't all of these people think that they had chosen Christ?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:26 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #324

Basically, it seems rather irrelevant in your walk with Christ whether you believe in predestination or not. Either way, you need to put on Christ. If you do, then the calvinist will say that you were chosen before you did that and it was meant to be. The non-calvinist will say that you chose Christ and could have denied Him. Either way choosing Christ is a guarantee of salvation.

Aaron here is the difference. you believe Christ did absolutely nothing at all. The key to salvation was beig smarter or more cleaver or holier that the lost.
The useless ineffective cross means a salvation by mens works.

The sacrifice of the cross + a clever man + the right time + plus the right palce+ a mans choice + a sinners prayer =salvation

We believe that salvation belongs to our God

That is a very BIG difference..a theology of man centeredness and a theology of God centeredness.

Now God in His mercy slects all sorts of men..even those that think satan told the truth to eve:>)

 

[Aaron11]

I think you are mistaken in your interpretation of my thought. I do not think that it is our works that saves us. I believe that it is because of Christ that some will recieve salvation. I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain. I know that Christ saves us. Reading the scriptures and living life, I realize that we have the choice to follow Christ or not. I think that it is very misrepresentative of my thought to say that I think Christ did nothing.

 

[Aaron11]

Today at 05:52 PM CCWoody said this in Post #329



Is it?:

• I Never Knew You
  "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Didn't all of these people think that they had chosen Christ?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Are you saved?  How do you know?

 

[bird]

Today at 08:51 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #322



God wants his kids to know their family. He has told us how we can know each other ..

We are save by grace through failth ..But He would not have us ignorant . He does not want us out fellowshipping with the unsaved or cults..

bird how can we love one an other if we do not use discernment to know who the "others" are.

We are not to be unequally yoked ..the light has no fellowship with the darkness..

 

dear momof7,

 

are you saying that we should have no contact with the "unsaved?"

bird

 

[Aaron11]

I am just wondering why Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

This makes me wonder: If Paul could have become disqualified, how was his salvation predetermined?

 

[Aaron11]

Today at 03:51 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #322



God wants his kids to know their family. He has told us how we can know each other ..

We are save by grace through failth ..But He would not have us ignorant . He does not want us out fellowshipping with the unsaved or cults..

bird how can we love one an other if we do not use discernment to know who the "others" are.

We are not to be unequally yoked ..the light has no fellowship with the darkness..

How are we supposed to treat "the elect" any different than the lost?

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 05:09 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #331

I think you are mistaken in your interpretation of my thought. I do not think that it is our works that saves us. I believe that it is because of Christ that some will recieve salvation. I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain. I know that Christ saves us. Reading the scriptures and living life, I realize that we have the choice to follow Christ or not. I think that it is very misrepresentative of my thought to say that I think Christ did nothing.

"I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain."

Well, except when He died with the expressed purpose of redeeming all of the people who will be burning forever in the Lake of Fire.  I'd call that pretty vain.

Don't you?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 05:11 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #332

Are you saved?  How do you know?

Yes...

I've met the Lord.  The Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a son of God.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Aaron11]

You wrote this in response to me saying that ultimately it does not matter our view on predestination.

Today at 05:52 PM CCWoody said this in Post #329



Is it?:

• I Never Knew You
  "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Didn't all of these people think that they had chosen Christ?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

So your point was that it matters what you believe on predestination right?  Thats all I can get from this.

 

[Aaron11]

Today at 09:48 PM CCWoody said this in Post #336



"I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain."

Well, except when He died with the expressed purpose of redeeming all of the people who will be burning forever in the Lake of Fire.  I'd call that pretty vain.

Don't you?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Christ died for all.  Not all will take the offer.  If you feel this is vain, then you see it that way.  I do not.  I see it as loving to give a person the choice to be saved or not. 

I could also use this same kind of logic and say that if Calvinism is true, then God was acting in vain by creating people that wouldn't be saved.  This would also be unloving and seems injust.  I don't wish to bring the debate to this subject, but I find it parallel to  your arguement


 

 

[Aaron11]

Why preach? Why "win" souls to Christ? What is the point of living if it is predetermined where we will end up?