Predestination/"Free Will"

[rnmomof7]

Today at 03:21 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #280



 Not so. Arminianism allows for the possibility of all men coming to Christ. But only if all men decide to on their own. At least that's my understanding of it.

You are correct. According to that theology no one was saved at the cross.
Even though Jesus said it was finished:>)

 Not as I understand Calvinism. Those who are predestined WILL be saved. All others will not. The only uncertainty is that men (apparently) have no way of knowing who or how many are predestined to salvation - but that it is certain that not all are predestined to salvation. Under universalism, ALL are predestined to some degree of abundant life. Even under universalism, there is no present count of believers - because, as the scripture says - Christ is to be testified to all men in due time. In universalist parlance, that means that all men will eventually receive the testimony of Christ and be drawn to Him. Calvinism says that all that are predestined to be drawn will have Christ testified to them.

Universalism elimates the cross completely and just believe god would never d*amn a man. They believe the hindi and the Muslim all woprship god as they understand him and are saved by Gods love . I would imagine they believe the cults will know the truth later,.but it was irrevelant to their salvation. They are in a sense antinomian

 

[Aaron11]

rnmomof7,

i am not sure what i believe on this issue. i do consider one thing in studying that i think you might be overlooking. God is not necessarily governed by time the way we think of it. when Christ said, "it is finished" i do not know if it necessarily meant, "all that will be saved have been chosen". just my thoughts, with all due respect,

aaron

 

[nikolai_42]

Today at 08:36 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #282

rnmomof7,

i am not sure what i believe on this issue. i do consider one thing in studying that i think you might be overlooking. God is not necessarily governed by time the way we think of it. when Christ said, "it is finished" i do not know if it necessarily meant, "all that will be saved have been chosen". just my thoughts, with all due respect,

aaron

Hi Aaron,

 I agree with your comment. God is eternal - that is, out of time. A thousand years is like a day to Him, but so is a day like a thousand years! I am able now to see something of what eternity is. It isn't on and on etc... with time continually passing, but it is merely full existence. It is the full revelation of all things. It is seeing something AS IT IS in its fullness. In time, we are constrained to see what a man is over time. Fruit is borne in season and we cannot judge beforehand, but in the light of eternity (timelessness), all things just ARE. They appear as they are. Their essence and very nature is there in front of you. So, too, with God. We can in no way grasp Him in a moment, but it requires a progressive revelation through the Holy Spirit. We indeed have the bible, but to eyes that cannot 'see', this book is no more helpful to reveal God than the Guiness Book of World Records. So when Paul says we will be like Christ because we will see Him as He is, it shows what it means to be translated to eternity - the fullness of Christ revealed in us is seen in a twinkle of an eye. We are then in a realm where that fulness of Christ is seen instantly instead of being testified over time.

 Anyway, just wanted to say I agree with you and explain some of my thoughts.

 

[nikolai_42]

Today at 08:12 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #281


Universalism elimates the cross completely and just believe god would never d*amn a man. They believe the hindi and the Muslim all woprship god as they understand him and are saved by Gods love . I would imagine they believe the cults will know the truth later,.but it was irrevelant to their salvation. They are in a sense antinomian

 I think you'd find some Christian Universalists (not Unitarian Universalists, there is a difference) disagreeing with you there. They would say that BECAUSE of the cross, all men will ultimately be reconciled back to God through Christ. Without Christ's sacrifice, this would not have been possible.

 I erased it (not thinking I'd reply to it), but mentioning Christ's sacrifice being finished...in that light, I'd say it was really finished before the foundations of the world.

 

[Ragman]

Yesterday at 06:12 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #281



You are correct. According to that theology no one was saved at the cross.
Even though Jesus said it was finished:&gt

Universalism elimates the cross completely and just believe god would never d*amn a man. They believe the hindi and the Muslim all woprship god as they understand him and are saved by Gods love . I would imagine they believe the cults will know the truth later,.but it was irrevelant to their salvation. They are in a sense antinomian

Christian Universalists would disagree with your description of salvation and the atonement.  Although, like any group there are differences among them.  The ones I have read and listened to take very seriously the cross, the incarnation, judgement, sin, the scriptures, etc.  They just see it differently. 

Although they believe all will be saved, "the restitution of all things", they believe that what somewhat believes is critical to how they spend eternity. 

 

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 07:36 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #282

rnmomof7,

i am not sure what i believe on this issue. i do consider one thing in studying that i think you might be overlooking. God is not necessarily governed by time the way we think of it. when Christ said, "it is finished" i do not know if it necessarily meant, "all that will be saved have been chosen". just my thoughts, with all due respect,

aaron

Arron If He meant " It is almost finished" why didn't he say so?

Do you believe that anyone was saved at the cross or was it just a start?

 

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 07:53 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #284



 I think you'd find some Christian Universalists (not Unitarian Universalists, there is a difference) disagreeing with you there. They would say that BECAUSE of the cross, all men will ultimately be reconciled back to God through Christ. Without Christ's sacrifice, this would not have been possible.

Most univeralists I know are the U &U kind..I do not know any Christian that do not limit the atonement

 I erased it (not thinking I'd reply to it), but mentioning Christ's sacrifice being finished...in that light, I'd say it was really finished before the foundations of the world.

It was ordained before the foundation of the earth and everyone that would be saved at the cross was ordained before the foundation of the earth. But I think to say it was 'actually complete' before the foundation of the earth I ~think~ deminishes the sufferning and pain that Christ endured in HUMAN time..

 

[nikolai_42]

Today at 02:36 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #287

It was ordained before the foundation of the earth and everyone that would be saved at the cross was ordained before the foundation of the earth. But I think to say it was 'actually complete' before the foundation of the earth I ~think~ deminishes the sufferning and pain that Christ endured in HUMAN time..

 
 

 I don't believe that it does. I should write an essay and store it somewhere for the number of times I have found myself trying to explain my thoughts on this, but it goes to the nature of revelation. As sure as prophecy is completed in heaven before realized here on earth, as sure as God was that "...the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent..." and the serpent bruise the heel of the seed, the sacrifice of Christ was accomplished in heaven but not yet worked out on earth. For what we see on earth is necessarily limited by the light which God created in the beginning, what we understand of the things of God is necessarily revelatory. It cannot be seen all at once, for to do so would require us to be out of time as God is. Just as a thousand years is as a day to God AND a day as a thousand years, so is that which dwells in the realm of the Spirit of God eternal. It isn't 'neverending' (which is only understandable within the constraints of our 4 dimensions - time) but things either are or are not. There is not the concept of unfolding over time. This is only a constraint in our world.

 So as I see it, Christ's sacrifice was accomplished in the heavens long before we came on the scene. He was not an afterthought of God, but a part of His purpose from the beginning. In no way does this diminish His suffering, for it was His condescending to our realm that made that suffering absolutely necessary. For Him to not suffer would have been evidence of imperfection - which we KNOW not to be true.

 As I am finding out ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio , Than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."

 

[martinluther2003]

how can you tell if you are predestined?

 

[Aaron11]

it is finished could very well mean, God's plan for sin to be atoned for is carried out. i dont see how it necessarily means that all people who will ever be saved were saved at that time.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 09:27 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #290

it is finished could very well mean, God's plan for sin to be atoned for is carried out. i dont see how it necessarily means that all people who will ever be saved were saved at that time.

So what was the 'plan " that was "finished if no one was saved?

Do you believe that anyone was saved by the cross WHEN He died?

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:13 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #288

 
 

 I don't believe that it does. I should write an essay and store it somewhere for the number of times I have found myself trying to explain my thoughts on this, but it goes to the nature of revelation. As sure as prophecy is completed in heaven before realized here on earth, as sure as God was that "...the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent..." and the serpent bruise the heel of the seed, the sacrifice of Christ was accomplished in heaven but not yet worked out on earth. For what we see on earth is necessarily limited by the light which God created in the beginning, what we understand of the things of God is necessarily revelatory. It cannot be seen all at once, for to do so would require us to be out of time as God is. Just as a thousand years is as a day to God AND a day as a thousand years, so is that which dwells in the realm of the Spirit of God eternal. It isn't 'neverending' (which is only understandable within the constraints of our 4 dimensions - time) but things either are or are not. There is not the concept of unfolding over time. This is only a constraint in our world.

 So as I see it, Christ's sacrifice was accomplished in the heavens long before we came on the scene. He was not an afterthought of God, but a part of His purpose from the beginning. In no way does this diminish His suffering, for it was His condescending to our realm that made that suffering absolutely necessary. For Him to not suffer would have been evidence of imperfection - which we KNOW not to be true.

 As I am finding out ... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio , Than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."

If that be so did Jesus have to come here?

What we do know for sure is that it was "ordained" before the foundation of the earth..
Indeed it was not an afterthought as ALL things were decreed by God before the foundation of the earth .

 

[Aaron11]

i dont know if i can comprehend "when" people are/were saved. is it at the cross? is it when they accept Christ? is it at judgement? i don't know if this could be bound by time... and if so, i dont know how to take it.

i know that saying "it is finished" could very well mean that Christ's mission is finished. it could mean that in a way that implied all who will be saved at judgement are then saved, or it could mean that the avenue to salvation is complete. i think that the phrase "it is finished" requires a person to read their perspective into the phrase. the simple phrase does not indicate predestination to someone who does not believe in it. it indicates predestination to the calvinist. why is this? it is because the verse is not explanitory or prescriptive. it is a text that can be taken either way and is taken both ways. we are left trying to fit the phrase into our concept of the gospel and the rest of the bible.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 12:57 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #293

i dont know if i can comprehend "when" people are/were saved. is it at the cross? is it when they accept Christ? is it at judgement? i don't know if this could be bound by time... and if so, i dont know how to take it.

So you think it might be possible that NO ONE was actually saved by the cross and Jesus might have died for nothing?

i know that saying "it is finished" could very well mean that Christ's mission is finished. ;/qoute]

What was his mission?

it could mean that in a way that implied all who will be saved at judgement are then saved, or it could mean that the avenue to salvation is complete.

So Jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in?

i think that the phrase "it is finished" requires a person to read their perspective into the phrase. the simple phrase does not indicate predestination to someone who does not believe in it. it indicates predestination to the calvinist. why is this? it is because the verse is not explanitory or prescriptive. it is a text that can be taken either way and is taken both ways. we are left trying to fit the phrase into our concept of the gospel and the rest of the bible.

If it is the Father that elects and the son that saves.. and the son says he will save all the father has given him..do you not think Jesus may have said it is "finished " to indicate that He had taken the punishment due for each of those the Father had given Him?

 

[Aaron11]

Today at 01:17 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #294

So you think it might be possible that NO ONE was actually saved by the cross and Jesus might have died for nothing?

So Jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in?




If it is the Father that elects and the son that saves.. and the son says he will save all the father has given him..do you not think Jesus may have said it is "finished " to indicate that He had taken the punishment due for each of those the Father had given Him?

If no one was saved AT the cross, but were saved because of the cross, then Jesus obviously did not die for nothing.

Jesus opens the door.  We are to accept Him in faith. Is that wrong? 

If&nbsp;God had already selected who&nbsp;Christ&nbsp;was going to save, how did He die for all?&nbsp;&nbsp; And we know that Jesus died for all.&nbsp; II Corinthians 5:14&nbsp;For Christ's love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: if One died for all, then all died. <B><I><B><I>15</I></B>&nbsp;And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.&nbsp; </I></B>

&nbsp;

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 01:52 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #295




If no one was saved AT the cross, but were saved because of the cross, then Jesus obviously did not die for nothing.

Jesus opens the door.&nbsp; We are to accept Him in faith.&nbsp;Is that wrong?&nbsp;

If&nbsp;God had already selected who&nbsp;Christ&nbsp;was going to save, how did He die for all?&nbsp;&nbsp; And we know that Jesus died for all.&nbsp; II Corinthians 5:14&nbsp;For Christ's love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: if One died for all, then all died. <B><I><B><I>15</I></B>&nbsp;And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.&nbsp; </I></B>

&nbsp;

Aaron the 'problem' with that is it means Christ might have come to earth suffered and died and not have one man saved because of it..

Did God just roll the dice? Can you see what I am saying?

Scripture says He redeemed us so we call him redeemer..that He bought us..while we were slaves to sin.
The way you are looking at it make the slaves pick the master, and the master pay for slaves that will never choose him..

Scripture indicates that salvation was complete at the cross, Jesus defeated Satan and men were saved...but you have the cross an ineffectual act unless man adds to it.

BTW this is a great conversation for Holy Week..:>) It is good to think on these things..

 

[Loxly]

16th October 2002 at 05:51 PM new2calvin said this in Post #5

Predestination:
I believe that there is predestination both to heaven and to hell. God chooses some for heaven and some for hell...thats just how it is...even the Apostle Paul preached predestination (Eph 1:4-5,11; Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13-14; 2Tim 1:9). And Paul was an Apostle of Jesus woudl God really alow something like that in th eBible if it were not true.

Free Will:
We do have "free will" but its not total free will like some people woul like to believe. Some say we hve the free will to chose whether we are saved or not and that is simply not true. We have the ability to make conscious choices but even those are sovreignly controlled by God. Even the ability to repent and exercise faith in Christ must be granted by God(Acts 5:31; 11:18; 16:14; 18:27; Phil 1:29) since, left to ourselves, we will only "recieve the grace of God in vain"(1 Cor 15:2; 2 Cor 6:2). THus, what God demands (namely, repentence and faith), he also supplies.

God be praised

Then nothing I do matters and God created lucifer/Evil for the purpose of purification and nothing else

&nbsp; And what a horrable thought most human beings were created by god knowing that they would be forever tormented in hell, How can you believe that, Am I missing something?

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 03:37 PM Loxly said this in Post #297
&nbsp; And what a horrable thought most human beings were created by god knowing that they would be forever tormented in hell, How can you believe that, Am I missing something?

Well, assuming you are a Christian, unless you believe in Universalism (that all men are saved regardless) or believe that God is not omniscient, then you believe the same thing. If God is omniscient, He knows before creating people who will perish (I am not speaking to whether He is active or passive in that regards). If He is not omniscient, then prophesies are nothing more than best guesses and our God is less than honest in His revelation.

 

[Loxly]

Omniscients means to have infinite knolwdge and awareness, so No there must be a limmit to his knowlege of the future in order to have free will, wich was given to us by god&nbsp;our father, God wants us to choose him / his son, not be born to choose him.&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I tried to explain it here &nbsp;http://www.christianforums.com/threads/42334.html

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 04:06 PM Loxly said this in Post #299

Omniscients means to have infinite knolwdge and awareness, so No there must be a limmit to his knowlege of the future in order to have free will, wich was given to us by god&nbsp;our father, God wants us to choose him / his son, not be born to choose him.&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I tried to explain it here &nbsp;http://www.christianforums.com/threads/42334.html

Since you have another thread already started, I will address the issue there as soon as I have time to formulate a reply.