Predestination/"Free Will"

[Aaron11]

Today at 10:39 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #296



Aaron the 'problem' with that is it means Christ might have come to earth suffered and died and not have one man saved because of it..Can you see what I am saying? That the cross was a cr*p shoot it it really saved no one.

Scripture says He redeemed us so we call him redeemer..that He bought us..while we were slaves to sin.
The way you are looking at it make the slaves pick the master, and the master pay for slaves that will never choose him..

Scripture indicates that salvation was complete at the cross, Jesus defeated Satan and men were saved...but you have the cross an ineffectual act unless man adds to it.

BTW this is a great conversation for Holy Week..:&gt It is good to think on these things..

"...the master pay for slaves that will never choose him."  What is wrong with this?  Jesus died for all.  Not all will choose Him.  Not all will be saved, not because Christ did not give them the way, but because they did not accept His way.  I do not see the problem in the logic.


You say that scripture indicates that salvation was complete at the cross.  I do not agree.  I agree that in some senses, salvation had been prepared for us, but I think it would be beneficial if you showed how you think scripture indicates that.  If you mean the phrase "it is finished", then you have already indicated that and we disagree.  If it is different scripture, then show it.  One scripture that comes to mind for me is, Phillipians 2:12.  It says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  That does not indicate that their salvation was already in place when Christ died.  At least that is how I can see reasonable to interpret.

I agree, its good to discuss these things, as long as we remember that we are children of God and we aren't to let issues like this get between us.  God bless.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 04:45 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #301



"...the master pay for slaves that will never choose him."  What is wrong with this?  Jesus died for all.  Not all will choose Him.  Not all will be saved, not because Christ did not give them the way, but because they did not accept His way.  I do not see the problem in the logic.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

exagorazo {ex-ag-or-ad'-zo}

Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to redeem

a) by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off

b) metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death

2) to buy up, to buy up for one's self, for one's use

a) to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own


Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Jesus bought us back while we were yet sinners.

Are you suggesting He bought a pig in a polk? That he came to buy men back and he paid for them ..but the merchandise had the final say?

That is not what the Bible says
Jhn 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You say that scripture indicates that salvation was complete at the cross.  I do not agree.  I agree that in some senses, salvation had been prepared for us, but I think it would be beneficial if you showed how you think scripture indicates that.  If you mean the phrase "it is finished", then you have already indicated that and we disagree.  If it is different scripture, then show it.  One scripture that comes to mind for me is, Phillipians 2:12.  It says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  That does not indicate that their salvation was already in place when Christ died.  At least that is how I can see reasonable to interpret.

I agree, its good to discuss these things, as long as we remember that we are children of God and we aren't to let issues like this get between us.  God bless.

Let me ask you a question if salvation was not complete at the cross is it possible that no one would have chosen Him and Gods plan of salvation would have failed?

Was the blood of Jesus ineffectual?

What does this mean to you?

Hbr 10:12__ But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[bird]

Yesterday at 06:17 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #294

So you think it might be possible that NO ONE was actually saved by the cross and Jesus might have died for nothing?

So Jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in?




If it is the Father that elects and the son that saves.. and the son says he will save all the father has given him..do you not think Jesus may have said it is "finished " to indicate that He had taken the punishment due for each of those the Father had given Him?

 

recently, i was reading jonathan edwards' famous sermon, "sinners in the hands of an angry god."   i was struck by a few things i had not really noticed before.   after  going on about how much god loathes  and abhors us, he then seems to switch gears, pleading thusly:

 

"and now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of god."

 

"therefore, let every one that is out of christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come...let every one fly out of sodom:  "haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

 

it would seem, at least from this sermon, that "jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in."  (a view i reject, btw)

 

but i was just wondering how it works then according to calvin? 

 

bird

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 08:49 AM bird said this in Post #303
it would seem, at least from this sermon, that "jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in."  (a view i reject, btw)

but i was just wondering how it works then according to calvin? 

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The regenerate heart, which now has a desire for God, acts upon that desire in responding to the outward call of the Gospel. The outward call of the Gospel is universal in that it comes to elect and non-elect alike. Man in an unregenerate state does not choose to accept it because he has no desire to. The regenerate heart does have a desire to, and thus when presented with the Gospel outwardly will respond. The regenerate heart still needs a call to respond to or salvific faith will never be established. This is why the notion that Calvinism eliminates the need for evangelism is ludicrous. Without the preaching of the gospel, the elect would run around with regenerate hearts but no faith...the desire to make the choice but no choice presented.

 

[bird]

Today at 02:34 PM frumanchu said this in Post #304



Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The regenerate heart, which now has a desire for God, acts upon that desire in responding to the outward call of the Gospel. The outward call of the Gospel is universal in that it comes to elect and non-elect alike. Man in an unregenerate state does not choose to accept it because he has no desire to. The regenerate heart does have a desire to, and thus when presented with the Gospel outwardly will respond. The regenerate heart still needs a call to respond to or salvific faith will never be established. This is why the notion that Calvinism eliminates the need for evangelism is ludicrous. Without the preaching of the gospel, the elect would run around with regenerate hearts but no faith...the desire to make the choice but no choice presented.

 

i would say that a sermon like edwards' has little to do with "hearing the word of god" and more to do with being manipulated by fear and terror.  

 

bird

 

[Aaron11]

I think that if we are not in Christ, we have things to fear. I also believe that once we are in Christ, we have His promise of salvation. His promises will never be broken. When we trust in the Lord's promise of grace in Him, we can have the, "peace that passes all understanding". I think the only time fear should be a real factor, is if someone is considering leaving God, or if someone will not accept God. Even in these circumstances, there is a positive side to the coin, which is the everlasting peace and rest that Christ will give to one who is His (no matter if you think He chose you individually first, or whether you chose Him first). The point stands for Calvinists and other Christians who do not agree with Calvin's philosophy. Without Christ, we would see hell, which is unimaginably wicked and cruel. With Him, we can be sure in our faith and have the full assurance of hope.

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 10:44 AM bird said this in Post #305

i would say that a sermon like edwards' has little to do with "hearing the word of god" and more to do with being manipulated by fear and terror.  

Does Edwards not preach the Word? There is most certainly Scripture that should and does inspire fear and terror. The wrath of God is just as present in His Word as His love. Mercy is nothing without justice.

 

[Aaron11]

Good point frumanchu.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 08:49 AM bird said this in Post #303




 

recently, i was reading jonathan edwards' famous sermon, "sinners in the hands of an angry god."   i was struck by a few things i had not really noticed before.   after  going on about how much god loathes  and abhors us, he then seems to switch gears, pleading thusly:

 

"and now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of god."

 

"therefore, let every one that is out of christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come...let every one fly out of sodom:  "haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

 

it would seem, at least from this sermon, that "jesus opens the door and then men have to work to get in."  (a view i reject, btw)

 

but i was just wondering how it works then according to calvin? 

 

bird

Edwards was a Calvinist's Calvinist and firmly believed in election.

BUT a belief in election does not remove from us the responsibility to present the gospel and call others to believe.

That is what Edwards was doing.

On Sunday last the pastor of my Calvinist Bible presbyterian church urged those that had not come to the cross to come ..he called on them to repent and believe.

Election does not remove the obligation of men to call others or to respond to the gospel

 

[rnmomof7]

13th April 2003 at 06:12 PM martinluther2003 said this in Post #289

how can you tell if you are predestined?

Have you repented and believed? Do you confess Christ ? Do you bear fruit? Does the spirit give witness?

Luther taught predestination....Good name

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 10:44 AM bird said this in Post #305



 

i would say that a sermon like edwards' has little to do with "hearing the word of god" and more to do with being manipulated by fear and terror.  

 

bird

The problem in the church today is they have made the gospel "user " friendly..wanna be healty , wealty and wise? Want your problems sovled in the here and now? Well come on to Christ.

THAT is NOT the gospel

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[bird]

Today at 06:55 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #310




Have you repented and believed? Do you confess Christ ? Do you bear fruit? Does the spirit give witness?

Luther taught predestination....Good name

by asking someone those questions, you unwittingly (?) imply that our assurance is to be found by looking to ourselves for evidences of our election, rather than looking to christ.  if the object of our faith is "our faith" we will never be truly able to have any assurance whatsoever.  the object of our faith is christ.  

 

bird

 

[bird]

Today at 04:03 PM frumanchu said this in Post #307



Does Edwards not preach the Word? There is most certainly Scripture that should and does inspire fear and terror. The wrath of God is just as present in His Word as His love. Mercy is nothing without justice.

 

does edwards not preach the word?  that depends....does merely quoting scripture constitute "preaching the word?"   

 

bird

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 10:58 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #306

I think that if we are not in Christ, we have things to fear. I also believe that once we are in Christ, we have His promise of salvation. His promises will never be broken. When we trust in the Lord's promise of grace in Him, we can have the, "peace that passes all understanding". I think the only time fear should be a real factor, is if someone is considering leaving God, or if someone will not accept God. Even in these circumstances, there is a positive side to the coin, which is the everlasting peace and rest that Christ will give to one who is His (no matter if you think He chose you individually first, or whether you chose Him first). The point stands for Calvinists and other Christians who do not agree with Calvin's philosophy. Without Christ, we would see hell, which is unimaginably wicked and cruel. With Him, we can be sure in our faith and have the full assurance of hope.

Arron you have been explaining a works based salvation ...one in which the men lucky enough to be born in a time and place to hear the gospel and men that are smart enough and clever enough and holy enough get to save themselves by making "good Choices"

That is not the salvation of the Bible

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:03 PM bird said this in Post #312





by asking someone those questions, you unwittingly (?) imply that our assurance is to be found by looking to ourselves for evidences of our election, rather than looking to christ.  if the object of our faith is "our faith" we will never be truly able to have any assurance whatsoever.  the object of our faith is christ.  

 

bird

The Bible tell us how to know the saved.. they repent, they confess with their mouths ,

and they have a witness of the spirit. I did not make that up ...Jesus talked of signs..it is not ungodly to use biblical discernment.

Our faith Is indeed in Christ , not in our works ....

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:07 PM bird said this in Post #313




 

does edwards not preach the word?  that depends....does merely quoting scripture constitute "preaching the word?"   

 

bird

Jesus taught more of hell then heaven did he preach the gospel?

_
_ Luk 16:19__ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
__
_ Luk 16:20__ And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
__
_ Luk 16:21__ And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
__
_ Luk 16:22__ And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
__
_ Luk 16:23__ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
__
_ Luk 16:24__ And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
__
_ Luk 16:25__ But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
__
_ Luk 16:26__ And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
__
_ Luk 16:27__ Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
__
_ Luk 16:28__ For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
__
_ Luk 16:29__ Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
__
_ Luk 16:30__ And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
__
_ Luk 16:31__ And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Scripture speaks of hell in many ways:


* as a place of torment (Lk 16:28),
* as the netherworld (Lk 16:22),
* as the abyss (Lk 8:31; Rev 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3),
* as a fiery furnace (Mt 13:42, 50),
* as a pool of fire (Rev 20:10, 14),
* as a fiery pool of burning sulfur (Rev 19:20),
* as a pool of fire and sulfur (Rev 20:10; 21:8),
* as Tartarus (Greek mythological place of punishment)(2 Pet 2:4),
* as Gehenna or as the fire of Gehenna (Mt 5:22, 29; 10:28; 18:9; 23:33).


_

 

[bird]

Today at 07:16 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #315




The Bible tell us how to know the saved.. they repent, they confess with their mouths ,

and they have a witness of the spirit. I did not make that up ...Jesus talked of signs..it is not ungodly to use biblical discernment.

Our faith Is indeed in Christ , not in our works ....

 

the bible tells us how to know the saved?   you then seem to define "saved" as having come from repentance and confession, yet in other posts you have implied that jesus is the one who saves us.  so which is it?  is it my repentance and confession that saves me?  or is it jesus?   i agree that jesus spoke of signs and how we will know his disciples...."a new command i give you:  love one another.  as i have loved you, so you must love one another.  by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."  (john 13:34-35)

 

bird

 



 

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 02:07 PM bird said this in Post #313

does edwards not preach the word?  that depends....does merely quoting scripture constitute "preaching the word?"   

It can, yes. What is your point? I believe I addressed your initial question as to how salvation "works" according to Calvinism. My reply was by no means comprehensive, so if you still have questions I'll be glad to address them as best I can.

I'm not an Edwards apologist (which of course doesn't mean I disagree with him either) so I won't spend a lot of time defending his sermons. Suffice it to say that a lot of churches, particularly in the West, are more concerned with being "seeker-friendly" and entertaining visitors than with preaching the whole counsel of God and edifying the body of Christ. Unfortunately, men like Edwards often aren't very welcome in a significant number of churches today.

 

[bird]

Today at 02:34 PM frumanchu said this in Post #304



Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The regenerate heart, which now has a desire for God, acts upon that desire in responding to the outward call of the Gospel. The outward call of the Gospel is universal in that it comes to elect and non-elect alike. Man in an unregenerate state does not choose to accept it because he has no desire to. The regenerate heart does have a desire to, and thus when presented with the Gospel outwardly will respond. The regenerate heart still needs a call to respond to or salvific faith will never be established. This is why the notion that Calvinism eliminates the need for evangelism is ludicrous. Without the preaching of the gospel, the elect would run around with regenerate hearts but no faith...the desire to make the choice but no choice presented.

 

for the purpose of having a more fruitful discussion, it might be helpful if i knew  precisely what you mean by the term "regenerate."  and how that regeneration occurs.

 

bird

 




 

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 03:00 PM bird said this in Post #319

for the purpose of having a more fruitful discussion, it might be helpful if i knew  precisely what you mean by the term "regenerate."  and how that regeneration occurs.

A good question. Regeneration refers to the changing of man's heart. The will is governed by desire, and man's heart desires to supress God and reject His sovereignty over his life and the universe. As long as a man's heart is thus, he will never seek God. He will never put his faith or trust in Christ. He will never choose because he doesn't want to. Doesn't matter what the situation, he will not choose God. Regeneration occurs when God changes that condition. He removes the effect of sin, replacing the desire to reject God with the desire to accept Him. His will then responds accordingly. Thus, when presented with the gospel, the regenerate man will respond and accept Christ. The result is faith unto salvation.

If any of my Reformed bretheren see error here, please speak up! I've been trying for awhile now to put such things into plain words and I'm afraid of mistating something in error.

Does this help, bird?