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Predestination/"Free Will"

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rnmomof7

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Today at 06:09 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #331

I think you are mistaken in your interpretation of my thought. I do not think that it is our works that saves us. I believe that it is because of Christ that some will recieve salvation. I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain. I know that Christ saves us. Reading the scriptures and living life, I realize that we have the choice to follow Christ or not. I think that it is very misrepresentative of my thought to say that I think Christ did nothing.


Did you not say that Christ saved no one on the cross?

If that be true then He saves no one.
His act is simply one ingredient in a pot.

It is not the salvation of man because it has no effect.

You believe he sorta opened the door..and that you, if you are bright or clever and born in the right place and time to hear the gospel get to walk in

Last time I looked walking was a work Aaron


Without UOU christ is nothing.

Think about this for a bit

Christ saved no one..man saves himself when he chooses to.
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 09:48 PM CCWoody said this in Post #336



"I definetly do not think Christ did anything in vain."

Well, except when He died with the expressed purpose of redeeming all of the people who will be burning forever in the Lake of Fire.  I'd call that pretty vain.

Don't you?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

No CC He does not think Chrsit saved anyone..His was only a possible salvation...Imagine if no one voted for Christ..the father never would have beed elected..Poor planning HUH?
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 10:07 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #339



Christ died for all.  Not all will take the offer.  If you feel this is vain, then you see it that way.  I do not.  I see it as loving to give a person the choice to be saved or not. 

I could also use this same kind of logic and say that if Calvinism is true, then God was acting in vain by creating people that wouldn't be saved.  This would also be unloving and seems injust.  I don't wish to bring the debate to this subject, but I find it parallel to  your arguement


 
Arron you can not have it both ways. Saying on one had he did not save anyone at the cross, and on the other that he saved everyone.

The Bible says Jesus was the propitiation (wrath bearer) for the elect.
It says he redeemed (bought us back) us.


Now if Jesus was the wrath bearer for all men and if he redeemed all men then He paid for all the sins of all men.

How can a just and loving God send men to hell for sins that he has already accepted payment for? Does God lie? Does God demand a double payment after saying that he accepted the price Jesus paid?

I believe my sin nailed Chrsit to the cross ..and as he hung there he saw all my sin as He took my punishment for me !
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 10:09 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #340

Why preach? Why "win" souls to Christ? What is the point of living if it is predetermined where we will end up?


God is the first cause of all things Aaron..He designied and ordianed the means..and the means is the preaching of the gospel. We preach because we were sent.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 09:02 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #338

You wrote this in response to me saying that ultimately it does not matter our view on predestination.



So your point was that it matters what you believe on predestination right?  Thats all I can get from this.


You said:  Either way choosing Christ is a guarantee of salvation.

To which I replied:

Is it?:

  • I Never Knew You
    "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Didn't all of these people think that they had chosen Christ? 

Obviously, choosing Christ is not a guarantee of salvation because you can choose POORLY.  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.  How do you think that a heart in that condition can make the right choice?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 09:07 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #339



Christ died for all.  Not all will take the offer.  If you feel this is vain, then you see it that way.  I do not.  I see it as loving to give a person the choice to be saved or not. 

And the one's whom God didn't love enough to let them hear the gospel...  ???

I could also use this same kind of logic and say that if Calvinism is true, then God was acting in vain by creating people that wouldn't be saved.  This would also be unloving and seems injust.  I don't wish to bring the debate to this subject, but I find it parallel to  your arguement 

No, you can't use that same logic for God did not create them with the purpose of saving them, but permitting them to secure their own damnation.

The Doctrine of Election
The Doctrine of Reprobation

Both true!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 09:09 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #340

Why preach? Why "win" souls to Christ? What is the point of living if it is predetermined where we will end up?

How does this make you feel:

And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, "O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!


Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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frumanchu

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Today at 12:29 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #349

So, I guess I am just asking if you think that I have to think that I was destined for heaven to get there? Or can I believe that I choose Christ and still get there?


Let me put it this way. If the Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are saved, then you are saved. You are saved by faith, not by your belief regarding election. That being said, there are very stern warnings about the dissemination of bad doctrine. All the elect will be saved, but they still must give an account to God of their actions and thoughts, by which we will be rewarded. So it is possible for you to be saved while holding an incorrect view on something like this, but it is not necessarily so. Your desire to please God should compel you to work dilligently to be sure about such things. You should work it out with fear and trembling, lest you escape "as one through a fire."

This, btw, is why I don't spend as much time in discussions about eschatology. I simply am not well-studied enough in that area to be dogmatic and I know that speaking as though I had authority when I do not will be rather hard to explain to my Lord when the time comes. I have certain inclinations in regard to this area, but ultimately I accept on faith that what God has ordained and prophesied will come to pass and that the outcome is certain...salvation is secured and eternal communion with the Lord is assured. If you are having difficulty in studying and understanding election, always rest on the assurance that God is holy and sovereign. Put your faith in Him and ask that He help you understand.
 
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Jerry_M

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It appears to me that the non-predestinarians make the common mistake of divorcing themselves from God's universe. They tend to see their agency as lying somewhere outside the all encompassing agency of God, whereby He controls all the events of their existence and choices.
 
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CCWoody

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Yesterday at 11:29 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #349

So, I guess I am just asking if you think that I have to think that I was destined for heaven to get there? Or can I believe that I choose Christ and still get there?

Let me state clearly for the record:&nbsp; I chose to have the Lord Jesus for myself.&nbsp; Yep, of my own free choice using my own free agency, I chose Him.&nbsp; But, I did not choose Him first.&nbsp; That would make the scripture a lie.

As Augustine has observed:

"But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things." He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo
&nbsp;

Do you have to believe this?&nbsp; No!&nbsp; For the same Lord who put away all of your sin prior to your conversion to Him has also put away all of your sin since since your conversion.&nbsp; Therefore, the sin of not believing the Lord Himself when He preached Predestination and not believing His word, which is 100% Predestinarian, is of no more hindrance to you than any other sin you have.&nbsp; The Lord has removed them all.&nbsp; Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Nevertheless, when you truly&nbsp;see what it took for the Lord to put away your sin, you will repent of these false beliefs regarding Predestination for you will loathe that part of you which adds one more lash from the striking whip.&nbsp; Do I need to badger you about this?&nbsp; No!&nbsp; When the Lord is ready, He will open your eyes to this truth, just as He has been pleased to use my teaching as a means of opening other eyes to embrace these truths.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 09:14 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #351

It appears to me that the non-predestinarians make the common mistake of divorcing themselves from God's universe. They tend to see their agency as lying somewhere outside the all encompassing agency of God, whereby He controls all the events of their existence and choices.

Yep!

There are two deadly serious errors in&nbsp;their theology.
  1. Their Will is too Great.
  2. Their God is too Small.
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 12:29 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #349

So, I guess I am just asking if you think that I have to think that I was destined for heaven to get there? Or can I believe that I choose Christ and still get there?


You are saved by Jesus Christ not a doctrine.

I was a catholic when i was saved... then I worshipped for years in an Arminian church
I was saved all that time.


It is important to have correct doctrine on your salvation because God made you for His glory..If you own any part of that He does not get the glory..you do
 
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bird

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&nbsp;




What does the Bible say about this? Your answer is there [/B]

[/QUOTE]


dear momof7,

&nbsp;

on the harmartiology forum you said this with regard to your family:

&nbsp;



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No.&nbsp; Election is an individual issue.&nbsp; I've known families where some are believers and some are not.&nbsp; I do believe that God has blessed my children by putting them in a Christian home (Prov 20:7) and I believe His promise that if I raise children in fear and admonition of the Lord that when they grow older they shall not depart.

God bless </B>

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"I agree . I pray for my children and I have confidence those that remain unsaved will come, and I have confidence that my grand children will come.
But as someone pointed out to me I came from a heathan unsaved home"

&nbsp;

in light of what you said earlier in&nbsp; this thread:

&nbsp;



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&nbsp;

the bible tells us how to know the saved?&nbsp;&nbsp; you then seem to define "saved" as having come from repentance and confession, yet in other posts you have implied that jesus is the one who saves us.&nbsp; so which is it?&nbsp; is it my repentance and confession that saves me?&nbsp; or is it jesus?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i agree that jesus spoke of signs and how we will know his disciples...."a new command i give you:&nbsp; love one another.&nbsp; as i have loved you, so you must love one another.&nbsp; by this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."&nbsp; (john 13:34-35)

&nbsp;

bird

&nbsp;



&nbsp; </B>

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"God wants his kids to know their family. He has told us how we can know each other ..

We are save by grace through failth ..But He would not have us ignorant . He does not want us out fellowshipping with the unsaved or cults..

bird how can we love one an other if we do not use discernment to know who the "others" are.

We are not to be unequally yoked ..the light has no fellowship with the darkness.."

&nbsp;

i am wondering if you have ceased "fellowshipping" with members of your immediate family.

&nbsp;

bird

ps:&nbsp; please forgive me, i do not know who do cut and paste very well on this site.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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rnmomof7

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Today at 10:14 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #351

It appears to me that the non-predestinarians make the common mistake of divorcing themselves from God's universe. They tend to see their agency as lying somewhere outside the all encompassing agency of God, whereby He controls all the events of their existence and choices.

Hi jerry!

Welcome!
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 11:24 AM bird said this in Post #355




dear momof7,



i am wondering if you have ceased "fellowshipping" with members of your immediate family.

&nbsp;

bird[/size]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>[/color]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Keeping in mind that we are in the world ,but not of it..
We can not remove ourselves from all work ,family or "social" situations.
There are unsaved people I love (like my family), but to be honest we have little in common outside of family relationships. So our time together is superficial , it is not "christian fellowship", I would not ask them to pray for me, or discuss any serious problem.
We live in different worlds for the most part. When the opportunity arises i remind them of their Christian upbrining (as i just did my 27 yr old daughter on the phone when she told me a job she ALMOST took was elimated , she said she was 'lucky' I told her she was blessed by God (quoting a vs from a psalm to her) not "lucky"...)
I love her she is a terrific lady, but we do not have a "fellowship" relationship" We have a mother /daughter one.
With my saved kids i have a parent /child/ friend in Christ relationship
Very different..


That is why we are warned not to be unequally foked..God knows how difficult that is..

When we have family time I look at my family as members of the visible church but not the invisible.It makes me sad, I pray for them ..but we can never have true fellowship
 
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bird

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momof7,

i don't know how to cut and paste very well on this website, so my post above is garbled. but....my question has to do with what you had said earlier about not knowing who the "others" are and having no fellowship with darkness; yet on another forum/thread you mentioned you were from a "heathen unsaved home" and that not all of your children were saved. so i'm wondering if that means you have ceased "fellowshipping" with your immediate family.

bird
 
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bird

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Today at 04:43 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #357



Keeping in mind that we are in the world ,but not of it..
We can not remove ourselves from all work ,family or "social" situations.
There are unsaved people I love (like my family), but to be honest we have little in common outside of family relationships. So our time together is superficial , it is not "christian fellowship", I would not ask them to pray for me, or discuss any serious problem.
We live in different worlds for the most part. When the opportunity arises i remind them of their Christian upbrining (as i just did my 27 yr old daughter on the phone when she told me a job she ALMOST took was elimated , she said she was 'lucky' I told her she was blessed by God (quoting a vs from a psalm to her) not "lucky"...)
I love her she is a terrific lady, but we do not have a "fellowship" relationship" We have a mother /daughter one.
With my saved kids i have a parent /child/ friend in Christ relationship
Very different..


That is why we are warned not to be unequally foked..God knows how difficult that is..

When we have family time I look at my family as members of the visible church but not the invisible.It makes me sad, I pray for them ..but we can never have true fellowship


sorry,&nbsp; i guess i was trying to edit my own post while you were replying...so i wasn't meaning to be redundant.

&nbsp;

i find a very strange dualism at work in your answer.

&nbsp;

bird
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 11:50 AM bird said this in Post #359




sorry,&nbsp; i guess i was trying to edit my own post while you were replying...so i wasn't meaning to be redundant.

&nbsp;

i find a very strange dualism at work in your answer.

&nbsp;

bird
Really? Then talk to Paul that observed we are in the world not of it.

Jesus was kind to all the lost..but he limited His disciples.
God has ordained that those "kids" be in my care in my family.
There is nothing that they could do that would make me stop loving them. But that has no relationship Christian fellowship..i am mom as ordained by God..That is the role He has given to me, those are the children he has given to me.

That is a very different thing that choosing friends
 
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