pre-trib

[timlamb]

good morning all





35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will[27][Lit is ] be taken and one will[28][Lit is ] be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill[29][I.e. handmill]; one will[30][Lit is ] be taken and one will[31][Lit is ] be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.


He is talking about the coming- yes

No, If he is he is repeating himself and contradicting. Verses 29-31 are the second comming, see the contrast.

lk 21

"It will be just[20][Lit according to the same things ] the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
32 "Remember Lot's wife.
33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life[21][Or soul ] will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 ["Two[22][Early mss do not contain this v] men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures[23][Or eagles ] will be gathered."

How could this be second comming. Read revelation 19:11-16, it is nothing like this. Two seperate events.

Matt 13
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

this explains why there is evil in the world, and how at judgement the tares will be cast into the fire

 

[jeffweeder]

To clarify your understanding, it is a good idea to look at the greek words used-

"one will be taken the other left"

"TAKEN", in the greek- PARALAMBANO has to do with taken in judgment, like the tares are- but the wheat are taken by the use of the word Harpazo, which means a snatching away- catching UP, -IN THE RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS IN 1 THESS 4:17.

 

[icedtea]

There are two different takings, the rapture, and at the very end, the glorious return to save earth.

 

[jeffweeder]

There are two different takings, the rapture, and at the very end, the glorious return to save earth.

Show me where it says this in the bible .
When Paul speaks about these matters he tells you that he got it from the lord- By the lords own word.
Where did the lord say that he was coming twice?
And where did the lord say that he was coming to save the earth? Please post the scripture that makes you think this way.

He said he was coming again before anyone did, this is why we have the promise and doctrine about it.
This is what i /we are waiting for.
When he does come , we will be with him. Just be faithful to him and be ready--no matter what happens.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

I would be quite surprised if the rapture didn't happen before the 7 years. Then I would just count 1290 days and know for sure when Jesus was returning, which he says we won't know.

It must all be taken in context. Jesus commands us to watch. What is the point if we have nothing to watch for because no sign will clue us in as to when the time is approaching? Most importantly Jesus is answering the disciples’ question which is, “…Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Mat 24:3). The discourse that follows is Christ answering these questions. We are commanded to remain ready. There is a reason constant vigilance is required. It is because we do not know exactly when these things will come to pass. One should remain faithful throughout and continue to watch so that when they see the signs coming to pass they will know the time is near, even at hand.

The wise virgins kept extra oil. They did not know exactly when the bridegroom would show. However there was a cry (a sign) indicating that he was approaching. It was at this point that the foolish virgins realized they needed more oil to last until he arrived at their location. The wise virgins did not share and while the foolish ones returned to get more oil the bridegroom came. The difference here is that the wise virgins remained vigilant while the foolish virgins were slack and were not prepared.

Here is what I would ask you, what day is it that Jesus says no man knows? Read the passage in Matthew 24 and see exactly what day it is that no man will know. What event is He speaking about and how does it correlate to His message? If you think this is a paradoxical situation then it exists for pre-tribers as much as post-tribers. But I’ll give you a chance to answer.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I have quoted many scripture that I don't think come close to matching up with the second comming. Like two in the field and two in bed and in each case one is taken. That picture does not add up with Christ riding in to do battle or anything trib-wise.

I would say that the first order of business is to first prove Scripturally a prophesied rapture where it is clear that no event will precede it and the tribulation cannot take place or the man of sin be revealed until after this event has taken place. This is what most pre-tribbers believe. I have shown Scripture where the day of Christ and our gathering together unto Him cannot take place until the man of sin is revealed.

I cannot find two distinct times within a short period of time where the elect will be gathered together. This is essentially what you are saying will take place, one right before the tribulation and then another one at the end. I mean clearly Christ indicates the gathering of His elect is at His appearance in power and glory when every eye shall see Him and the tribes of the earth will mourn and Daniel describes the timing in the same way. This event is placed at the conclusion of the time of great tribulation. Scripture only reveals 2 resurrections, the first for saints and the second for the rest of the dead. That second one is after the millennium so we know there’s at least a thousand years difference between the first and second resurrections. The event Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians is the resurrection as he describes the dead rising. This is the same event Daniel is describing in Daniel 12.

Daniel places it in the context of prophetic events leading up to it. Paul does not as this would most likely have been understood by his audience for whom the OT would have been Scripture since the NT hadn’t been canonized yet. A church familiar with OT prophecy would have recognized the event Paul was referring to.

Scripture reveals one resurrection to gather the elect and one general resurrection of the rest of the dead. Are there going to be two gatherings of the elect within roughly a 3 ½ or 7 year period (depending on your view)? If so where in Scripture is a third resurrection mentioned? We can’t deny the one written of by the prophets and confirmed by Jesus. Its timing is made clear. John makes clear the timing of the second resurrection which is at the end of the millennium (after the thousand years are completed see Rev 20:4-5). If there is only going to be one gathering of the elect then did Jesus speak the truth about it when He said it would be immediately after the tribulation of those days or did He lie?

 

[icedtea]

If "every eye shall see Him", then how can "two be sleeping, and one taken and the other not"?

 

[timlamb]

I don't understand. How does Matthew 24:41-42 and Luke 17:34-35, and comming "like a theif in the night", compare to Matthew 24:29-31 and Rev. 19:11-16. These events cannot be related except in reference to Christ Jesus. Where on earth are you going to find believer and nonbeliever side by side in bed, at work, preparing meals after the one world government and the antichrist? And the fact that all these things, meals sleep, and work are used to describe the same moment show a globle event and wouldn't be used if it was not still the norm of the day, like now.

Would those scoffers of the pretrib belief respoind to this not by saying what everything else says, but answer how this prophecy takes place post trib.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

If "every eye shall see Him", then how can "two be sleeping, and one taken and the other not"?

Would those scoffers of the pretrib belief respoind to this not by saying what everything else says, but answer how this prophecy takes place post trib.

(Timlamb) Just because someone does not share your view does not make them a scoffer. I already answered your question in a previous post. If you did not understand my answer or have specific points you wish to take issue with then please post your questions and comments to what I have already posted and I will be happy to try and clarify further. You are creating an artificial dichotomy with these Scriptures you are referencing. All of this was in the same message and is speaking about the same things. Read them and keep in mind the question Jesus is answering.

Now I would appreciate it if you two would answer some of the questions that both jeffweeder and I have been asking. Why don’t we start with what you think the rapture is. Do you believe that the dead in Christ will be raised in the rapture?

 

[icedtea]

Yes, but not like years before. Then we shall meet the Lord in the air, go to Heaven for the marriage of the lamb.
Many will get saved during this time on earth. Then Jesus returns WITH His saints, the antichrist is thrown bodily (alive) in the lake of fire, unbelievers will get judged, and those 144,000 who have been marked will live on earth, as normal humans for 1,000 years.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Do you believe that the dead in Christ will be raised in the rapture?

Yes, but not like years before.

Thank you HowardDean. I would next ask how many resurrections are there in the Bible?

 

[icedtea]

I don't have it memorized.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

I don't have it memorized.

How many prophesied resurrections of the dead (plural) are there? Perhaps if I clarified by saying how many are left to be fulfilled.

 

[timlamb]

It can be hard to seperate the second comming from the rapture in prophecy.

But first of all, according to the events leading up to the second comming Christians will not be working and sleeping side by side with non-Christians. It will be a time of persicution like the world has never known.

Scripture also discribes the Lord returning WITH the saints, along side Him out of heaven. While the rapture is only about believers being caught up to be with Him. The second comming He comes to conquer and then judge all men as they are. In the rapture He transforms believers and takes them away with out judgement.

There are no signs before the rapture, it can happen anytime. The second comming is set up by many prophecied events. The rapture sets up the tribulation, the second comming is the finalisation of the tribulation.

The second comming is prophecied in the old testament. The rapture is revealed in Christ Jesus.

No one has addressed how one will be taken and the other left behind. This cannot be according to scripture about the tribulation. Whether this is wheat and tares or sheep and goats, they will not be side by side all over the world for the Lord to take one and leave one. One will have the mark of man, the other will be a persecuted Christian.

The event of Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-35 is the rapture and has to be pre trib. But even if you call it removing of the tares it still doesn't fit mid or post trib prophecy. This issue has not been addressed.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

The event of Matthew 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-35 is the rapture and has to be pre trib. But even if you call it removing of the tares it still doesn't fit mid or post trib prophecy. This issue has not been addressed.

I’ll tell you what Timlamb, you answer my questions and I will do my best to answer yours through the Scripture. I think we can all agree that it all has to fit together Scripturally. If it does not then there is a problem. I wouldn’t mind your take on the questions I already asked. Do you believe that the dead in Christ will be raised in the rapture? How many prophesied resurrections of the dead (plural) are there? Perhaps if I clarified by saying how many are left to be fulfilled.

 

[timlamb]

I already answered your question in a previous post. If you did not understand my answer or have specific points you wish to take issue with then please post your questions and comments to what I have already posted and I will be happy to try and clarify further.

No, I just went back and looked, you have never addressed the scripture in the OP.

You are creating an artificial dichotomy with these Scriptures you are referencing. All of this was in the same message and is speaking about the same things. Read them and keep in mind the question Jesus is answering.

How do you call two sleeping or working together while one is taken and the other left the same message as the second comming as described in Rev. 19:11-16 while looking at the tribulation leading up to the second comming. That appears to be a true dichotomy to me.

Now I would appreciate it if you two would answer some of the questions that both jeffweeder and I have been asking. Why don’t we start with what you think the rapture is. Do you believe that the dead in Christ will be raised in the rapture?[/

I don't recall avoiding a question nor do I recall owing you an answer to anything asked me directly. And further, I think jeffweeder can take care of himself.

The rapture is the end of the time of the Gentiles and of the pouring out of the spirit. As the Church is removed the focus goes bsack to the Jewish nation and Gods Chosen are given one more chance, and after they realize the rapture has happened they will turn to Christ as their savior.

Jesus, in Luke 17, uses the example of The righteous Noah being removed and then destruction, and also Lot being rmoved and then the distruction of Sodom, so it will be after the Rapture, the trouble on earth will begin like never before, as prophecied. Look at Luke 17:31.

I just saw something I never saw before. Jesus uses a simular phrase about not going back to the house for goods or comming in from the field for anything, but it is not to flee, He compares it to Lot's wife looking back, not wanting to give up this life. Then He goes into the one taken and one left. This is most definately not about fleeing evil on earth, but turning from earth to be caught up with the Lord.

 

[timlamb]

I’ll tell you what Timlamb, you answer my questions and I will do my best to answer yours through the Scripture. I think we can all agree that it all has to fit together Scripturally. If it does not then there is a problem. I wouldn’t mind your take on the questions I already asked. Do you believe that the dead in Christ will be raised in the rapture? How many prophesied resurrections of the dead (plural) are there? Perhaps if I clarified by saying how many are left to be fulfilled.

I just love it when people do this, "NO, you first". I am still waiting for you to address my op.

I think I have supported my opinion on pre trib very well. I do believe the dead in Christ rise first as described in thes. I think the saints of old have a special place and are translated first, then the living "in Christ". And at the second comming we return with Him to rule for the millenium. The way the book of Revelation refers to the "the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.(because) They had not worshiped the beaste." Rev. 20:4 And those in white robes referred to in Rev. 7, I don't see another resurrection of the dead although the dead are judged in Rev. 20.

It seems that after the rapture those who die "in Christ" ascend to heaven because they are there before the Second comming when they ask to be avenged.

Incredable, amazing stuff.

 

[EturnaL]

If the rapture is not "pre"- then we would no the exact day and time of it....this is completely contrary to Scripture.

That is in addition to Rev 3:10's use of "ech" and not "dia".

 

[timlamb]

If the rapture is not "pre"- then we would no the exact day and time of it....this is completely contrary to Scripture.

That is in addition to Rev 3:10's use of "ech" and not "dia".

Very Good! Luke quotes Jesus as saying we should pray that we "escape all that is about to happen", but this is even more specific. Well Done!

 

[icedtea]

If the rapture is not "pre"- then we would no the exact day and time of it....this is completely contrary to Scripture.

That is in addition to Rev 3:10's use of "ech" and not "dia".

Exactly! When the beast signs the peace treaty with Israel, all will know the exact date Jesus will return.

 

[Zadok7000]

The church is not mentioned in revelation beyound chapter 4.

I promised myself I wouldn't post in another rapture thread...but that statement just is so blantently incorrect I feel compelled to address it.

Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

There are "coincidentally" 2 Churches that the Lord found no fault with: Smyrna and Philadelphia...the Church is mentioned in Chapter 11.