pre-trib

[calidog]

Do you not understand that the earth will be fully populated with SPIRITUAL bodies? The flesh is gone at the 7th trumpet.

verse(s) please?

If you're talking about the last trumpet by the sixth angel, a third of mankind will be destroyed.

 

[Zadok7000]

verse(s) please?

That the flesh is done at the 7th trumpet? Are you missing that entire precept??

Start with 1Cor. 15:50-52 and Rev 19:17-18

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[calidog]

yes I am.

Paul says WE shall be changed, not ALL shall be changed.

 

[Zadok7000]

yes I am.

Paul says WE shall be changed, not ALL shall be changed.

I will stand on the Scriptues I posted above.

 

[icedtea]

Its easy to prove people still live physical bodies after Jesus returns. Those who deny this are being deceived by the enemy.

 

[Zadok7000]

Its easy to prove people still live physical bodies after Jesus returns. Those who deny this are being deceived by the enemy.

Spiritual bodies are physical. The earth will be filled with billions of them during the Millennium.

 

[icedtea]

And many of them will fight against the Lord, like the bible says. And some will die at age 100 also.

 

[Zadok7000]

And many of them will fight against the Lord, like the bible says.

100% correct. But that doesn't change the fact that there are no flesh bodies after the 7th Trumpet.

And some will die at age 100 also.

Figure of speech. You cannot have a 100 year old child. Spiritual bodies do not age.

 

[timlamb]

That the flesh is done at the 7th trumpet? Are you missing that entire precept??

Start with 1Cor. 15:50-52 and Rev 19:17-18

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Universalists use these scriptures to promote their Universal salvation doctrine. The word all is only used to point out that men of all walks, Jew and Gentile, kings and slaves, rich and poor, weak and powerful, are included in this feast for the fowls.

 

[Zadok7000]

Universalists use these scriptures to promote their Universal salvation doctrine.

Considering I'm not one, I'm not sure what your point is?

The word all is only used to point out that men of all walks, Jew and Gentile, kings and slaves, rich and poor, weak and powerful, are included in this feast for the fowls.

And all are. ALL. All flesh is ended.

 

[icedtea]

You said spiritual bodies are physical and all flesh is ended. Which one is it?
Apparently, some spiritual bodies will go to hell.

 

[Zadok7000]

You said spiritual bodies are physical and all flesh is ended. Which one is it?

I don't understand your confusion. Both flesh bodies and spiritual bodies are physical. How do you think the fallen angels impregnated women in Genesis? ALL are changed to Spiritual bodies at the 7th trumpet. The flesh body doesn't just disappear...

Apparently, some spiritual bodies will go to hell.

Yup, Lake of Fire/2nd death, you got it.

 

[timlamb]

Considering I'm not one, I'm not sure what your point is?

And all are. ALL. All flesh is ended.

The point is you are making the same error in interpreting scripture.

 

[timlamb]

The point is there is a rapture and a second comming prophecied. Two events. If the rapture cannot happen until the tribulation time is underway, then it cannot come "like a theif in the Night", it must wait for something. This is not scriptural.

 

[Zadok7000]

The point is you are making the same error in interpreting scripture.

And yet, I'm not...

 

[Kingdom_Come]

No, I just went back and looked, you have never addressed the scripture in the OP.

Actually I did. I thought my point about those Scriptures was implicit that they happen at the gathering of the elect. The real question here is when do you think that gathering will take place? Without answering this underlying question with support from Scripture and without rightly dividing The Word of Truth then one cannot address those Scriptures.

How do you call two sleeping or working together while one is taken and the other left the same message as the second comming as described in Rev. 19:11-16 while looking at the tribulation leading up to the second comming.

By correlating what is described in Revelation 19:11-16 with what Jesus reveals in that same Chapter of Matthew that you are quoting from. Is Jesus describing the same event in Mat 24:2-30 as is described here in Revelation or will the tribes of the earth mourn more than once?

I don't recall avoiding a question nor do I recall owing you an answer to anything asked me directly. And further, I think jeffweeder can take care of himself.

There is no point in becoming trite with responses like this unless you have abandoned any hope of a reasonable discourse about this subject. You asked for peoples’ thoughts and we are giving them to you. I mention jeffweeder simply because neither you nor HowardDean have bothered to answer some of the questions we posed. Since you two have been the main ones responding and since our responses have been to both of you I fail to see how you can think the questions we asked were directed at anyone else?

I know I asked for clear Scripture which lays out the course of prophetic events and starts with a rapture which must take place prior to any of the other prophecies being fulfilled. I believe he also asked for the same or something similar (I know it involved asking for Scriptural reference). I have not seen any attempt to even address that question. We have prophecies speaking clearly about virtually everything else and placing them within the context of prophetic events. While we do not have dates we do know some things have to happen before other things can happen and so forth. The second coming is included in these events as is the gathering of the elect. So I am asking where Scripture makes it clear that a rapture must happen before the time of great tribulation and before the man of sin is revealed. After all this is the pretrib stance that many hold if I am not mistaken. If I am then please correct me. I know that this question has not been answered by either of you.

I just love it when people do this, "NO, you first". I am still waiting for you to address my op.

This is why I am asking the questions. In order to fully address your position I want to make sure I fully understand how you see events. The questions are simple and the answers should be too. If you feel I have not adequately answered your question about those specific verses then I am letting you know it will be part of all of this.

I do believe the dead in Christ rise first as described in thes. I think the saints of old have a special place and are translated first, then the living "in Christ". And at the second comming we return with Him to rule for the millenium.

So I take it that this is a yes. You believe that the dead in Christ will be raised at the rapture. So you are answering that there is only one actual resurrection left to take place. I would ask what you think is happening at the end of Revelation 20. Resurrection is the dead rising. John separates two resurrections by 1000 years. There would be no point to delineate a first resurrection if there isn’t a second to follow.

Is this:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The same event as this:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

If the rapture is not "pre"- then we would no the exact day and time of it....this is completely contrary to Scripture.

I realize you just started responding to this thread however I will ask the same question I asked previously. What day is it that Jesus is referring to when He says, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Mat 24:36)? I would recommend reading over Matthew 24 a little more carefully. If you hold a pretrib position and are using this Scripture to defend your position then you are misunderstanding what He was talking about.

Let me repeat that: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days

There will be NO babies or old men. Flesh is done. ALL are in spiritual bodies in the Millennium.

Actually this is not true as death will not be removed from the earth until the end of the thousand year reign. The significance of those who are in the first resurrection living to the end of the 1000 years is that they will complete a day (they are in new bodies; everyone will not be part of that resurrection). Adam was cut off from finishing a day after he sinned and his progeny was also cut off from being able to do so. The resurrected and translated will reign with Christ but there will still be people on the earth. That is what Isaiah is talking about, a person who dies at 100 years of age will be thought of as a child. Remember before God reduced man’s days they appeared to live much longer lives than we do. I think there would be little doubt that someone 100 years old was not looked on as very old when you had people commonly living past 900. None of them completed 1000 though. You can reference Revelation 20-22 (see Rev 21:4).

This is also consistent with what Paul wrote to the church in Corinth (1 Co 15:25-26). The last enemy to be defeated is death. In the new heavens and the new earth there will be no more death. However He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet first.

 

[timlamb]

Jesus spoke of it all, rapture and tribulation and His final comming. It depends on the author and audience of the book as to how it is discussed. Matthew heavely quoted Jesus concerning the tribulation because his focus audience was Jews. Luke shared the Gospel with gentiles and the tribulation was not and issue.

The difference I have noticed, in a nutshell, is that in the rapture Jesus leaves the world unaltered accept for removing the church. At the second comming there is wrath and judgement and battle and an end to the tribulation. Look at Matthew 24:36-44, there is none of the second comming issues.

Jesus does not return to the earth in the rapture, He takes to Church out. Two being together and one is taken without the knowledge of the other. The earth is changed as a result of realizing the rapture has happened; many know of it but do not have faith.

read this along with the OP and you get my position very clearly. Can we get back to the OP? I feel these scripture could describe nothing but a pretrib earth. There is no rapture timeline prophecy, as it will happen any time, like a theif in the knight, in the twinkling of an eye. The Rapture starts the prophecy clock toward the trib and the second comming.

Now you have my opinion, would anyone like to comment. Comment before questions please.

 

[timlamb]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

Here is the OP.

 

[Zadok7000]

Actually this is not true as death will not be removed from the earth until the end of the thousand year reign.

What does that have to do with what I was saying? Those in Spiritual bodies can die. And some will at the 2nd death at the end of the Millennium. But not until then.

The significance of those who are in the first resurrection living to the end of the 1000 years is that they will complete a day (they are in new bodies; everyone will not be part of that resurrection).

ALL are in their new bodies. Only those of the 1st resurrection are not subject to the 2nd death. The rest of the earth (still in Spiritual bodies) are STILL subject to the 2nd death and the end of the Millennium, and ONLY then.

The resurrected and translated will reign with Christ but there will still be people on the earth.

Of course there will be people on earth. Christ is on earth. His saints are on earth. ALL people are on earth. ALL people are in Spiritual bodies. Many people here seem unable to comprehend the reality of the Spiritual body?

This is also consistent with what Paul wrote to the church in Corinth (1 Co 15:25-26). The last enemy to be defeated is death. In the new heavens and the new earth there will be no more death. However He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet first.

Correct. The new heaven and new earth do not begin until the 1,000 years are over. Again, just becuase one is in a Spiritual body does not mean they are not subject to death in the Lake of Fire. (Matt. 10:28)